Arcona

[lustyd]

Interesting to see this story on Yachting World. I went on the Arcona at the boat show and their "sales" people did their best to try to convince me that diesel was the better option and not to bother with electric. As I got off I explained the only reason I was on their boat was the Uma video showing off their electric drive ? Good to see them moving it forwards though
First look: Arcona 415 – electric production yacht - Yachting World

 

[Concerto]

Earlier this year my brother had his boat moored alongside an Arcona in Fox's. It was there as it was fully electric and found there was insufficient ability to keep the batteries charged, so a diesel generator was being fitted. Perhaps this is why they recommended diesel.

 

[lustyd]

I imagine a few people have gone electric without realising how they need to be used. That's not a failing of the tech, just uninformed buyers. Used right, the unlimited range would be a real bonus over diesel, as would the quiet operation. Used wrong people will find themselves not getting to work on Monday morning. Thankfully some of us have the flexibility to work from boats so getting back on time is less important. What amused me though was the company showing their green credentials, which was working, and the sales person undoing all of that work. There's no way I'd consider their boats for any other reason unless cost was a real driver, and if I were to place an order it wouldn't be!

 

[BabaYaga]

Used right, the unlimited range would be a real bonus over diesel,

On the contrary, I would have thought the very limited range was the main obstacle for electric propulsion to take off?
It would have been interesting to read some estimates of range, at various speeds and in different conditions, from the standard 19kWh battery pack.
But I cannot find this, neither in the YW article nor in the specifications on Arcona's website.

 

[lustyd]

You're confusing a single charge with range of yacht. Diesel has an extremely finite range, when the tank is empty you're stuffed. With regen, solar and wind power your boat might stop for a bit, but it will go again later. Completely different and for long distance infinitely better since you would literally never need to refuel.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

You're confusing a single charge with range of yacht. Diesel has an extremely finite range, when the tank is empty you're stuffed. With regen, solar and wind power your boat might stop for a bit, but it will go again later. Completely different and for long distance infinitely better since you would literally never need to refuel.

I don't think it's quite there yet though UMA was showing about 500 watts at speeds of 6.5 to 7 knots and with a relatively low daily consumption showing charge into their batteries but in reality with a spell below 5 knots they ended up with a significant drain out of their batteries and ended up using a small generator. A lot of cruising boats with a less spartan attitude will be using lots more power so will always be in definite. It is however an interesting development.

 

[lustyd]

I feel like you're watching a very different channel to me. I've not seen them use their generator except in testing. I did see them say they had not used it at all, and I saw them charge the system through regen only on a sail. Perhaps I'm not paying attention, but pretty sure I am. Either way, a little 36 footer with a small solar install in the arctic doesn't begin to compare to a 40 footer designed for the task doing normal sailing in the tropics.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I feel like you're watching a very different channel to me. I've not seen them use their generator except in testing. I did see them say they had not used it at all, and I saw them charge the system through regen only on a sail. Perhaps I'm not paying attention, but pretty sure I am. Either way, a little 36 footer with a small solar install in the arctic doesn't begin to compare to a 40 footer designed for the task doing normal sailing in the tropics.

Try this at 13.38

 

[lustyd]

Ah you're referring to when they tested it.

 

[dunedin]

On the contrary, I would have thought the very limited range was the main obstacle for electric propulsion to take off?
It would have been interesting to read some estimates of range, at various speeds and in different conditions, from the standard 19kWh battery pack.
But I cannot find this, neither in the YW article nor in the specifications on Arcona's website.

It is a lovely boat and a major milestone in electric drive boats - not sure if it truly is the first production boat with “electric drive as standard”, but it does mark the start of the move away from being able to name the individual one-off electric drive boats to some signs of more volume.
But I agree that it is a shame that there are no real world range tests. I was recently chatting with some people at Cowes on a flat calm Sunday, and commented that few, if any, electric drive yachts could even motor back to Poole if they needed to get to work on Monday. And that was in a calm - being able to punch off a lee shore in a F7 is also important. (And I can‘t see how they can claim a 15kW /20hp drive can equate to a 50hp Diesel engine, though happy to be proven wrong with some maths or a bollard pull test.)

But my guesstimate would be that the Arcona 410 has one of the better ranges I have seen - but 19kWh with 15kW drive suggest 10-30 no range (the latter at 4 knots or less in still water).
A bigger battery pack is an option, but at added cost. Did anybody manage to get sight of a price list, comparing electric and diesel options?

 

[lustyd]

The range info I've seen suggests several hours motoring and Cowes to Poole would not be a problem at all until you hit the outgoing tides at Poole, and then you'd need to push it hard and may have to anchor off for a couple of hours. Unfortunately the amount of misinformation from grumpy old men outweighs the real info in this subject. Same as when Clarkson was telling the world electric cars would never catch on (5 years ago!). Someone will be along with some "physics" in a minute, just you watch...

 

[dunedin]

I don't think it's quite there yet though UMA was showing about 500 watts at speeds of 6.5 to 7 knots and with a relatively low daily consumption showing charge into their batteries but in reality with a spell below 5 knots they ended up with a significant drain out of their batteries and ended up using a small generator. A lot of cruising boats with a less spartan attitude will be using lots more power so will always be in definite. It is however an interesting development.

Which generation of Sailing Uma electric drive was that? They are on version 4 already - I assume the suppliers are funding this as nobody paying their own money could replace such expensive kit with new versions so frequently. I am sure Sailing Uma are giving good value to their suppliers though, with great communication skills and good analysis, doing more through their videos to raise the profile of electric drives in sailing yachts than all the supplier advertising put together.
The last gear swap was to the latest Oceanvolt saildrive with electronic feathering prop. This replaced a very recent but previous generation saildrive, and was specifically aimed at improving regeneration.

Like others though they have been quite coy about range. I think they suggested at one time just one hour at full power - clearly much longer at 3-4 knots, before drag builds. Also heard less about battery pack size, but my best guess was 15kW drive, 14kWh battery, so max range 7-25 miles (in flat water).

 

[lustyd]

They've actually gone into quite a bit of detail on their battery and range in previous videos. Their main comments have generally been that it's a sailboat though, and that if they were on a lee shore in a F7 they'd only need to motor for the 5 minutes it takes to get the sails up. As liveaboards with no schedule they have the time to make it work. The rest of us will get better systems as a result though so win win.

 

[DJE]

For the typical coastal yachtsman - needing good range under power on demand - I don't see a practical alternative to hydrocarbon fuel. There are other areas like aviation or emergency standby generators where this is also the case. But these could be offset by the use of biofuels or direct air capture of CO2.

 

[BabaYaga]

You're confusing a single charge with range of yacht. Diesel has an extremely finite range, when the tank is empty you're stuffed. With regen, solar and wind power your boat might stop for a bit, but it will go again later. Completely different and for long distance infinitely better since you would literally never need to refuel.

When the tank is empty you are not stuffed, but have to resort to sailing (if there is any wind).
It is the same situation as when the battery pack for propulsion gets flat, use the sails, if you can.
This is why range is interesting, how far can you go before the stored energy, tank or battery pack, is gone?
The only difference is that the electric propulsion sailing boat, given enough time, will put energy back in storage. At which rate? How large is the generation capacity, through propeller, solar etc?
Until there are some reliable figures on range and regeneration capacity I think few people will consider electric propulsion for long distance voyaging.
In contrast, I believe electric propulsion has a far better future in another type of boating – where people go out for a day and return each evening to their berth and AC socket.

 

[lustyd]

The difference being that a diesel with an empty tank can't dock when it gets in (easily) whereas the electric yacht will potentially arrive with a full charge. Yes, both have to sail, but the electric never needs to explicitely refuel at the dock and so is unlimited range on the engine if used appropriately. Diesel power will never achieve this, while electric will gradually redecue the period where the motor can't be used.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Which generation of Sailing Uma electric drive was that? They are on version 4 already - I assume the suppliers are funding this as nobody paying their own money could replace such expensive kit with new versions so frequently. I am sure Sailing Uma are giving good value to their suppliers though, with great communication skills and good analysis, doing more through their videos to raise the profile of electric drives in sailing yachts than all the supplier advertising put together.
The last gear swap was to the latest Oceanvolt saildrive with electronic feathering prop. This replaced a very recent but previous generation saildrive, and was specifically aimed at improving regeneration.

Like others though they have been quite coy about range. I think they suggested at one time just one hour at full power - clearly much longer at 3-4 knots, before drag builds. Also heard less about battery pack size, but my best guess was 15kW drive, 14kWh battery, so max range 7-25 miles (in flat water).

The last one that they fitted in Tromso before going to Svalbard and having to use the generator that they bought in Tromso.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Ah you're referring to when they tested it.

No if you watch it they are halfway to Svalbard

 

[Yealm]

Wonder what the energy density of latest generation batteries is compared to diesel..
Presumably the electric version is a bit lighter hardware-wise so potential weight saving there?

 

[lustyd]

No if you watch it they are halfway to Svalbard

And if you pay attention they are trying out the genny to see what happens. They certainly didn't need to, and they changed their minds pretty quickly due to noise.