Applicable laws when overseas.

[Dave100456]

Hi
I have just found a hole in my knowledge of using my boat abroad and my search on Google isn’t helpful.

Situation: Private, British registered 14m vessel operating in USA waters with uk owner/ skipper on board.
I’ve just tendered back to the boat at anchor here in Florida and the next door boat’s tender was followed by Police and given various warnings over safety equipment and registration which got me thinking.

As a UK citizen, operating my privately owned and UK registered 14m vessel here in the US, what state/ national rules do I need to follow in respect of my yacht and its 3m tender? For example in Florida tenders have to carry life jackets and be registered and I’ve been told some states requires fire extinguishers on tenders as well. As a foreign flagged yacht, does my main vessel and tender only have to comply with UK rules when operating in US waters?

Thanks

 

[Thistle]

What about asking, for example, the United States Sailing Association (US Sailing)?

 

[Daydream believer]

What about asking, for example, the United States Sailing Association (US Sailing)?

Oh come off it!! This is the PBO forum. Who needs facts?
What the OP needs are replies starting with-- "I do not know but" --followed by a full list of the things that they think might be the full facts, . Thus starting a slanging match circa post 96. Whereupon everyone gives up & starts another thread; leaving the Op scratching his head & wondering why he bothered

 

[dunedin]

If you are an RYA member try asking them, as i think they have looked into this.
I am no expert, but AFAIK they decided this was ambiguous and might need to go to court to determine (ie very expensive abroad). Flag state rules apply if on innocent passage. But a boat ordinarily in another country for a while cruising about may not fit that definition. Hence the theory that only flag state rules apply could turn out to be a bar room myth.

 

[NormanS]

Presumably as the OP is in the USA, if for example he hires a car, would he be asking here which side of the road he should drive? ?

 

[PilotWolf]

Deleted as think I quoted the wrong thing. Its late here and bed is calling but have fun searching the CFR's.

W.

 

[Sandy]

What about asking, for example, the United States Sailing Association (US Sailing)?

Or the US Coastguard

 

[kof]

U.S. federal or state rules on registration/licensing do not apply to you. They only apply to residents of that state and you are classed as a transient.

now if you are a resident in a state in the U.S. and not cruising on through then that’s a different matter.

edit: let me add that you couldn’t register anything even if you tried as you would require a federal or state id/ssn. It’s the same situation in New Zealand which brought in strict regs for boats leaving NZ on an ocean passage. Only applies to NZ registered and owned boats.

 

[rotrax]

U.S. federal or state rules on registration/licensing do not apply to you. They only apply to residents of that state and you are classed as a transient.

now if you are a resident in a state in the U.S. and not cruising on through then that’s a different matter.

edit: let me add that you couldn’t register anything even if you tried as you would require a federal or state id/ssn. It’s the same situation in New Zealand which brought in strict regs for boats leaving NZ on an ocean passage. Only applies to NZ registered and owned boats.

Quite so.

Our Hartley 32 'Ella' is on the SSR.

The draconian and expensive - full survey - requirements for NZ registered boats to go offshore do not apply to us.

 

[PilotWolf]

U.S. federal or state rules on registration/licensing do not apply to you. They only apply to residents of that state and you are classed as a transient.

now if you are a resident in a state in the U.S. and not cruising on through then that’s a different matter.

edit: let me add that you couldn’t register anything even if you tried as you would require a federal or state id/ssn. It’s the same situation in New Zealand which brought in strict regs for boats leaving NZ on an ocean passage. Only applies to NZ registered and owned boats.

I believe you could register in the USA using a 'trust' in the same way as you can register an N reg aircraft for use (based) outside of the US.

W

 

[Dave100456]

Presumably as the OP is in the USA, if for example he hires a car, would he be asking here which side of the road he should drive? ?

If I did not know which side to drive on then yes I would ask; probably a better strategy than finding out empirically !

 

[dunedin]

If you are an RYA member try asking them, as i think they have looked into this.
I am no expert, but AFAIK they decided this was ambiguous and might need to go to court to determine (ie very expensive abroad). Flag state rules apply if on innocent passage. But a boat ordinarily in another country for a while cruising about may not fit that definition. Hence the theory that only flag state rules apply could turn out to be a bar room myth.

Law of the Sea and Coastal State | boating abroad | RYA

 

[Tranona]

This is a grey area. The legal principle underlying what rules apply to a bout is "comity" - that is one state recognising the rules of another. So generally speaking it is correct that flag rules apply when outside the flag territorial waters. However this is not a binding requirement on states and they are free to require foreign flag vessels to comply with local rules. There are many examples where this is the case, the best known for folks here is Portugal which applies its equipment rules to foreign flagged vessels which are deemed "resident" in their territorial waters.

So US coastguard could apply whatever US rules it liked IF it was government policy to do so. However I do not believe this is the case.

The principle of comity does not stop local officials making up their own rules - in many countries port police and customs have far more local power than we are used to and often the freedom to use those powers as it suits them.

 

[dunedin]

At a practical level, if the police see a tender tied to a dock that is unregistered, they probably have no way of knowing if it comes from a USA boat that is failing to adhere to Florida rules, or comes from a British flagged boat. So they would have to follow the tender out to the yacht to ascertain the mother craft flag state. Having spent the time doing that, they are probably minded to give vent to their thoughts.

Knowing the local rule requiring a tender to be registered, is it worth ensuring your tender is marked with something which makes clear that it is a UK vessel - “t/t MyBoat of London” (or whatever). Or “t/t UK SSR nnnnnn”. Indeed, if it helped, any reason why couldn’t register the tender and get its own SSR number and pop that on the stern?
Always better to deflect officials interest elsewhere before they engage with you, rather than afterwards and have to debate the legal fine points (which rarely ends well)

 

[AntarcticPilot]

This is a grey area. The legal principle underlying what rules apply to a bout is "comity" - that is one state recognising the rules of another. So generally speaking it is correct that flag rules apply when outside the flag territorial waters. However this is not a binding requirement on states and they are free to require foreign flag vessels to comply with local rules. There are many examples where this is the case, the best known for folks here is Portugal which applies its equipment rules to foreign flagged vessels which are deemed "resident" in their territorial waters.

So US coastguard could apply whatever US rules it liked IF it was government policy to do so. However I do not believe this is the case.

The principle of comity does not stop local officials making up their own rules - in many countries port police and customs have far more local power than we are used to and often the freedom to use those powers as it suits them.

I was going to say something along the same lines. The Law of the Sea applies unconditionally in non-territorial waters; i.e. 12 miles outside the "baseline", and in non-territorial waters, the law of the country of registration applies. WIthin territorial waters, if on "innocent passage" (i.e. transit WITHOUT stopping within the country whose waters you are transiting) is still covered by the Law of the Sea, and state of registration is the law in that case. But as soon as you enter a harbour or anchor, you are covered by the state's own legislation. In territorial waters there are exceptions, as Tranona states, and some are usual though not mandatory. However, there is another level, which is internal waters - that is, waters within the "baseline". As the baseline can broadly be visualized as a line joining major headlands and offshore islands, it follows that the vast majority of waters that a yacht might be in, as well as ALL harbours or sheltered anchorages, will be internal waters. And in internal waters, the laws of the state hold. Again, states MAY allow exceptions through "comity", but they are not bound to and some don't.

In summary, state of registration only certainly affects the relevant law if you are in international waters (i.e. more than 12 miles outside the baseline). It MAY affect the relevant law within territorial waters a) if you are on innocent passage without stopping within the state concerned or b) in certain situations covered by the Law of the Sea or c) if the state concerned allows it. In internal waters, the state may (through "comity") allow a foreign registered vessel to conform to the registration state's requirements rather than its own, but it is not obliged to do so, and Tranona gives an example of one that doesn't.

 

[kof]

In the u.s It can’t be done and the locals know that. I lived in the U.S, and sailed there for almost 10 years - The U.S. coast guard are feds and don’t care about local reg. The local enforcement is usually water (city or state) police and they know they can’t issue a ticket to a visitor and nor do they expect to. Local state laws apply to state residents. I’ve been stopped in many states on a foreign flagged boat and once you tell them you are a tourist and cruising on through they say fair enough and on your way.

Only confusion/ignorance I’ve seen with locals in the med is on the icc and assuming that their rules about the icc should apply.

This is a grey area. The legal principle underlying what rules apply to a bout is "comity" - that is one state recognising the rules of another. So generally speaking it is correct that flag rules apply when outside the flag territorial waters. However this is not a binding requirement on states and they are free to require foreign flag vessels to comply with local rules. There are many examples where this is the case, the best known for folks here is Portugal which applies its equipment rules to foreign flagged vessels which are deemed "resident" in their territorial waters.

So US coastguard could apply whatever US rules it liked IF it was government policy to do so. However I do not believe this is the case.

The principle of comity does not stop local officials making up their own rules - in many countries port police and customs have far more local power than we are used to and often the freedom to use those powers as it suits them.

 

[NormanS]

The OP doesn't say whether he is cruising or not. He says he is "operating" his boat in the USA. Maybe if he cleared up that confusion, it might be easier to answer his query.

 

[Dave100456]

The OP doesn't say whether he is cruising or not. He says he is "operating" his boat in the USA. Maybe if he cleared up that confusion, it might be easier to answer his query.

Apologies for the confusion, I am cruising.

 

[Dave100456]

I’m on limited internet and with a 5 hr time difference so apologies for the late response….
Thank you to those who replied with their informative links and interpretations of this situation, all very useful.
As someone pointed out asking officials here is not the most accurate source of info as the rules are interpreted in a very local manner that varies not only from one County and/or State to another but also indeed from one official to another. Case in point with CBP; some officers require me report my vessel movements (even if only 5M) whilst other officers only want a report as you move States. Some even say report only when in a marina ( which we never use) and no need to report at anchor. Some CBP officers are very helpful and some want you to know they have the power, uniform and a gun!!
I’d be interested to know how many sub 10ft tenders in the UK are equipped with fire extinguishers as I’m told is the law here in Florida. If fire broke out on my tender, I’d be in the water pronto rather than reaching for an extinguisher!

 

[Sandy]

As someone pointed out asking officials here is not the most accurate source of info as the rules are interpreted in a very local manner that varies not only from one County and/or State to another but also indeed from one official to another. Case in point with CBP; some officers require me report my vessel movements (even if only 5M) whilst other officers only want a report as you move States. Some even say report only when in a marina ( which we never use) and no need to report at anchor. Some CBP officers are very helpful and some want you to know they have the power, uniform and a gun!!

I've always found that official clarification in writing works wonders. Good morning sir/mam I've been given this document by <insert appropriate authority here> would you kindly check that I am complying with it with your HQ, while you are doing that would you like a mug of tea.