Any Thames questions?

[kimhollamby]

Chris,

The b******t factor has never been anything but the same, whether you have 30 years' experience or none, I can assure you. If you think Envag is bad, try David Fletcher at BW.

The trick is a) to have the right questions and b) to fear no-one when asking them. I know Kate well enough to believe that she'll make an honest fist of trying to get some hard answers, however many cups of tea she is offered.

Ironically it was someone much closer to your home who recently managed to get these very forums press-released by the Thames Boating Trades Association with a note of complaint (a month after it happened) thanks to a rather inaccurate post on Thames marina prices. That didn't matter as such, but it was interesting to note that the TBTA were, in effect, expressing angst at the state of the Thames too...so perhaps instead of tearing lumps out of one another it is time for a few like-minded individuals to get together to focus all this heat constructively. Yes, I know there are plenty of bodies out there supposedly looking after interests but clearly they are not satisfying the people posting here.

Give Kate her chance...I started my boating on the Thames but was never made to feel more welcome on it until I got involved in mags and got involved in the issues that way. That feeling for a particularly important piece of UK water has never left me but it was the people on it, not the water flowing through it, that brought that about.

 

[boatone]

I fully appreciate your right to an opinion but I am getting very fed up with your apparent need to keep ramming it down our throats.

boatone@boatsonthethames.co.uk

 

[Guest]

Re: Who\'s next in the \'Savage a Staffer\' Contest?

Any takers? Kim?

 

[Guest]

Re: hmm

In retrospec, praps unwise to ask the readers their views: now the staffer is getting the beating instead of the interviewee. Much better to publish first, then readers write in all disgusted and win a bottle of gin/whisky, and everybody v happy.

 

[ChrisP]

Kim as you know I live with one of Kate's biggest fans and have no boubt that she will do her best for all concerned. But like Jake I too used to take my crust from the Authority and have spent many years on committees and the like, trying to get a fair deal for the boaters. At one time you could actually talk to the grown ups and get sense and sometimes, a promise that would be kept. Now that is all gone and the only game in town is to sell water. The Authority never wanted boats on the river. They are an expense that they could well do without. Without boats there would be no need for lockkeepers or inspectors. The only traffic would be the comercial traffic and the company tugs etc. There would be no need for elsan points or any of the infrastructure that they so grudgingly support and all weir work would be done by a few runners controlled from head office. This has been the dream for years. An overhead free river that is a cheap source of an expensive commodity. Water.
With the ratio of payments moving further and further towards the boater paying the lions share of the running costs I feel no shame in shouting the odds on behalf of the boater. If we've got to pay give us our money's worth. Eileen is the product of a modern comercial institution and she's good at her job, hence the salery she gets. Unfortunatly her job is not giving us value for money.
Give Kate a chance to make a real impression. Let her join a few boat clubs. Not the ones like PHYC where appathy is the most active ingrediant. Go for the active ones where she'll get to know the true picture from the people who use the river. let her do a bit of boating for a year or so, and observe first hand, the dereliction of the facilities. Get her to attend the ATYC and RUG meetings. Chuck in a few RYA meetings and let her see for herself the true attitude of the authority towards the boater. Then let her apply for an interview with Eileen. Due to a full diary caused by knowledge that Kate knows where she's coming from, Eileen will never be available. I know, I've been there.

I'm not negative, just realistic and demoralised after years of beating heads against brick walls whilst watching the greatest natural asset this country has got going to waste in the hands of a comercialised land lord that will take it's proffits and run.

I wish Kate all the best and hope a few of the rose tinted wets out there that have just dipped their toe in the Thames, will give her the support she needs. Unfortunatly the old hands know in their hearts what the outcome will be.

Chris.

 

[kimhollamby]

Actually, I'm sure it would be good if Kate and others of her age group did get more involved in the club scene, although I know right across the country that we are missing a generation or two of younger blood just when perhaps we need it the most. Are the clubs offering the right mix for late teens and 20-somethings...subject of another thread perhaps?

Chris, you and I may have wearied of the fight (I still twitch when I hear <BSS>) but let's at least be grateful there are those who are carrying on having a crack at improving things.

At risk of stirring it even further, have ATYC and the like done everything in their power? How about a levy on all clubs to fund one or more full time professionals to move this thing on a bit. After all, we've all pecked away at it but most of us have a lot of other things to divert our attention...like trying to earn a living. And it musn't be forgotten (but sometimes is on magazines and forums) that people go boating - for fun (gulp, so that's what it's all about).

Still got my <I just want to go boating> T-shirt from a speech I made at a Future of River Boating conference promoted by Envag a few years back. A bit like the dreams then, it's looking a bit faded. How to overcome, that's the question?

Kate won't solve it, but taking some of the constructive points made on this thread to Reading can hardly harm the cause. MBM doesn't exactly have a track record of cosying up to Envag or BW; I'm sure it's not going to start now.

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: Who\'s next in the \'Savage a Staffer\' Contest?

Oh yes, fire away. I was made short enough to duck...bit of a culture shock for Kate though but knowing her she'll be back!

 

[byron]

Re: Who\'s next in the \'Savage a Staffer\' Contest?

Mebbee I have been reading these postings wrong. I wasn't aware that anyone was having a pop at Kate. Chris was just pointing our a few home truths about Eileen and Envag. he certainy wasn't having a go at Kate.
The fact is Envag is being run by people that don't know the sharp end from the blunt end of a boat. They don't listen to their own Lock Keepers who all know exactly what is wrong let alone to the end users such as Boaters. On the whole and ChrisP will agree with me here, the Lock Keepers are a great bunch, it is the management that are out of touch with us.
As regards the ATYC they are the proverbial Toothless Tiger.

©2001
www.education-jobs.co.uk
www.advertising.mcmail.com

 

[ChrisP]

Kim don't write me off yet there's still plenty of venom in this well rounded frame.

The ATYC has always been at the front of the push where the boater has been concerned and infact the chairman for all his faults in some peoples eyes has always pushed ENVAG to the limit as can be seen from the limited increases in fees over the past years. However we are no longer doing battle with a local authority. Now it all comes from Westminster and they hide behind the shield of only talking to national bodies like the RYA. I agree that any press coverage is good coverage as far as the "cause" is concerned. My only point is that when we get an oppotunity to do some digging we should give it our best shot. To be honest a 2 day collection of scattered thoughts before an interview with a major player was a bit lightweight. But as I say all power to her elbow.

As far as clubs and young ones are concerned you are talking to a founder member of that particular gripe. But while the average age of the club committees is around the 60 mark what can you expect. When the RYA wrote to our club offering a youngsters RIB handling competition with a sponsered RIB complete with engine for the club our Hon Sec couldn't even be bothered to reply. Sitting on the RYA local committee I knew about the offer and when prompted for an answer the Hon Sec hadn't bothered to ask around or do anything because she didn't think it important.
There is the attitude you're up against. I should point out that when most of the membership found out there were considerable rumblings but it was too late then.

Due to our boat being at the coast now it's a bit more dificult but if you and Kate would like a day on the river I'll see what I can do to arrange a trip to show you some of the more obvious bones of contention. You never know, maybe Eileen could come along to see what a river looks like. We could even use one of her boats, the inspectors don't. I promise (fingers crossed) no keel hauling.

Regards

ChrisP

 

[ChrisP]

Re: Who\'s next in the \'Savage a Staffer\' Contest?

With you all the way Byron. ATYC's toothless beacuse of the apathy of the membership and the ENVAG management hiding behind Westminster.

 

[KateB_C]

Re: Who\'s next in the \'Savage a Staffer\' Contest?

It seems that some of you have spent many years trying to ask questions, with no success at all in getting any satisfactory answers.

May I suggest that perhaps you have gone about it in the wrong way?

Maybe you should let me have a go, as you have obviously had no luck whatsoever. Who knows? Maybe an apparent "novice" may be just the person you need to go in at a new angle.

I do understand that the subject of the Thames is a contentious one, and one that is of great importance to many MBM readers - however, it is obvious that a different tack is needed. Perhaps the Thames big cheeses would be more willing to talk to a keen, relatively inexperienced journalist rather than an angry "seasoned" Thames user.

With my small experience in life and Thames boating, even I know that approaching a situation in a confrontational manner will get you nowhere.

Kate

 

[kimhollamby]

You may not be seeing me on the Thames now in any official capacity but I've been lurking in the backwaters and know exactly what is going on. No criticism implied regarding your angst, or that of of others...with you all the way. As for Kate, well perhaps she can hijack Jake's Freeman and give it a run?!

I've seen things change since keenly monitoring the Thames scene that is in the region of a 15-year span (when using it 15 years prior to that the worst part I remember was it seemed a bit of a fiddle for Dad having to buy a licence for our dinghy and then having put the name all over white gloss-coated topsides). Quite what the perspective must be like if you have been closely involved for longer I shudder to think.

Saddest thing about all of this is the river hasn't changed much in character (well, okay if you can ignore the housing developments covering boatyards, the bog-off boaters signs on more banksides and the idiot element who like cutting mooring warps for fun), but anyone reading this will get the impression that this is the river from hell and might as a result never get to experience the many good things still available, despite legislation et al. I have many happy memories of the Thames and hope to add a few more before I am finished.

Great debate Chris...on reflection I'm not that jaded either!

 

[ChrisP]

Re: Who\'s next in the \'Savage a Staffer\' Contest?

If you honestly believe that all the people from the differing walks of life over the years have got it wrong. Then you carry on.

Jake
Better get that job advert out again.

 

[kimhollamby]

Re: Whoa!

Whoops, not entirely fair Kate. What you read here and what may have happened in the past are not relational. You are reading the result of years of frustration, not necessarily the way in which the topic has been discussed with various authorities over the years.

This is a massive issue for users and the trade on the Thames...Jake is right to highlight it in MBM I am sure and there is a big responsibility on your shoulders. Use the best of the comments here wisely, no-one is encouraging you to enter the interview tomorrow all guns blazing, but as you have been warned - don't expect any overnight fixes.

 

[BarryD]

Peter - Sad man, give the lady a chance NM

<G>

Barry D.

 

[KateB_C]

Re: Who\'s next in the \'Savage a Staffer\' Contest?

Apologies if what I suggest has been taken in the wrong way.

I have gleaned from responses on this forum and from people I have spoken to during my time at MBM that there are many issues relating to Thames use and maintenance that have remained unresolved, despite public concern and private discussions with those in responsibility.

I was merely suggesting that a new voice and perhaps a new perspective may help in the cause. I would in no way belittle the efforts that have gone before to achieve better communication with the Environment Agency. Nevertheless, the force with which some responses on this matter have manifested themselves would suggest that previous efforts have not always been successful.

Kim, I agree that the forum is a tiny representation of years of discussion between Thames users, workers and managers, however it is only here that I have seen any effort to bridge the gap met with disdain. Those who have tried before may be pessimistic as to the effect of anything I could say or do, but surely any attempt to put forward the concerns of boatowners to those in charge is a valid one and should be supported rather than criticised.

If Ms McKeever is as unforthcoming as some people would like to make out, a stab at a new angle of interview is hardly likely to cause any damage. However, surely it is worth a go.

 

[jfm]

Re: Good luck, and one question

Kate, well said, and good luck tomorrow.

One question for Eileen Wotsits. I'm not a regular Thames user, I mostly sail South Coast, sorry therefore if my question is naive. But the few times I have launched around Putney praps and sailed to Greenwich, the river has been really full of junk, like big lumps of wood and other nasty stuff. Does it have to be this way?

JFM

 

[PGD]

Re: Who\'s next in the \'Savage a Staffer\' Contest?

I admire your tenacity, it’s certain what’s needed from reading the posts, some of which do appear to come from the grumpy old gits corner – perhaps you should start a Victor Meldrew Forum If all this effort were put together in a cohesive form I’m sure many of the issues would if not get fixed at least reach the board room table for discussion – all we need is some tangible proof that something is being done, or a more open approach to perhaps show what the real constraints are. It’ all too easy to criticize, the brains is in the creativity to get the problem fixed.

Anyway as you’ve said a new angle never does any harm, it refocuses the mind set in some cases, oh and one other point, tongue in cheek, never let the facts get in the way of a good story

Good luck,
Peter

 

[boatone]

How did it go?...

Well, It's Friday now and I keep wondering how you got on! Are you still in one piece, Kate? I'm sure you will tell us to 'watch this space' for the mag article but 'twould be nice to know if you slayed the dragon!

boatone@boatsonthethames.co.uk