Antifoul time soon...what to go for?

[Neeves]

The thing about next door’s boat being a floating reef…. What about the pontoon you’re moored to? Ours is thick and lush, been there for 10-15 years. Everyone on our pontoon has issues with fouling, whatever they use.

Ah - my comments were addressed to the parsimonious, like me, who will not pay marina fees and have a swing mooring - I'd forgotten about the floating reefs in a marina - but same problem (and one that has never be raised before).

Jonathan

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Ah - my comments were addressed to the parsimonious, like me, who will not pay marina fees and have a swing mooring - I'd forgotten about the floating reefs in a marina - but same problem (and one that has never be raised before).

Jonathan

Mine in fact isn’t in a marina, it’s a mid river non walk ashore pontoon, whose purpose is to fit more boats in than swinging moorings, which we would prefer.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

Rather frustrating that we are only allowed to apply and purchase the decaf versions of some antifouls . Difficult to see how differently we would apply it compared with boat yards.

 

[Dellquay13]

Rather frustrating that we are only allowed to apply and purchase the decaf versions of some antifouls . Difficult to see how differently we would apply it compared with boat yards.

When shipyards in 1st world countries apply industrial A/F there will be a team in hiviz with name badges and clipboards making sure high levels of H&S and environmental protection are at least paid lip service.
Let me free with it and I’d start well with good intentions and insufficient knowledge and equipment but finish up cutting every inconvenient corner with a pile of disasters swept under a very lumpy carpet.

I’m not unversed in UK H&S law and practice for industry, I hold H&S general management qualifications, and previously managed H&S policies in construction related trades for quite a few years. I know how easy it is for inconvenient standards to slip when they aren’t rigorously applied.

Some of the industrial A/F seems to be very restricted. The 2 marine companies in our boatyard can’t get the stuff used by the dry dock people on the other side of the docks.
When it is used in our yard ‘under the radar’ you can tell by the strong smell left in the air.

 

[Tranona]

I think many folks can't make Coppercoat
pay it's way.

Would I use coppercoat with a new boat ?
I don't honestly know.

I did and it really makes sense, even if you DIY with conventional. I keep my boat in all year round and the new Bavaria I bought in 2015 was Coppercoated straight from the factory, so no blasting. The only problem was the iron keel which was not prepared properly and started to fail after 3 years. For the first 3 years I just lifted for a wash once a year. Year 5 had the keel blasted and recoated which did rather knock the economics, but assuming the recoating worked (I sold the boat so don't know) could look forward to another 5 years of just one lift a year.

If you haul out and layup every year anyway and DIY then you are right, difficult to make a case for an existing boat because of the cost of blasting and application. For long term cruisers though it can make sense because it reduces the need for haulouts. However there is no clear cut "best" - all you can do is look at your expected pattern of use and take a view on whether it is a good use of your money.

 

[Biggles Wader]

When shipyards in 1st world countries apply industrial A/F there will be a team in hiviz with name badges and clipboards making sure high levels of H&S and environmental protection are at least paid lip service.
Let me free with it and I’d start well with good intentions and insufficient knowledge and equipment but finish up cutting every inconvenient corner with a pile of disasters swept under a very lumpy carpet.

I’m not unversed in UK H&S law and practice for industry, I hold H&S general management qualifications, and previously managed H&S policies in construction related trades for quite a few years. I know how easy it is for inconvenient standards to slip when they aren’t rigorously applied.

Some of the industrial A/F seems to be very restricted. The 2 marine companies in our boatyard can’t get the stuff used by the dry dock people on the other side of the docks.
When it is used in our yard ‘under the radar’ you can tell by the strong smell left in the air.

Yes but------
In European countries like Netherlands (and others) these highly dangerous antifouls (like Jotun and others) are available to yachtsmen over the counter. The H&S issues seem to be around how the paint is applied and thus the level of PPE worn. Big ships use big spray painters while small yachts might use a 4 inch brush and the dangers are different. They need to be managed by the boatyard/ship repair yard accordingly rather like issues around surface preparation should be. I have not noticed any strong smell from these paints, perhaps they are using thinners?
In the real world these paints are available under the counter if you know where to look and local fishing vessels have no problems getting them and applying them. I have used Hempel Olympic in the past and Jotun Seaforce currently. Both work OK as long as the boat gets used fairly regularly.

 

[Sailing steve]

Yes but------
In European countries like Netherlands (and others) these highly dangerous antifouls (like Jotun and others) are available to yachtsmen over the counter. The H&S issues seem to be around how the paint is applied and thus the level of PPE worn. Big ships use big spray painters while small yachts might use a 4 inch brush and the dangers are different. They need to be managed by the boatyard/ship repair yard accordingly rather like issues around surface preparation should be. I have not noticed any strong smell from these paints, perhaps they are using thinners?
In the real world these paints are available under the counter if you know where to look and local fishing vessels have no problems getting them and applying them. I have used Hempel Olympic in the past and Jotun Seaforce currently. Both work OK as long as the boat gets used fairly regularly.

I've no idea if as a leisure user you can legitimately buy or use Jotun "professional" antifouls in the UK or not but I've seen 5 ltrs of Seaforce 30 advertised by a trade supplier at a little over £100.

Even if it's only got a comparable performance to what's available to us on the chandlers shelves - and I suspect as a Trade product it's actually significantly better - then it's blindingly obvious the leisure market is being well and truly screwed on both price and performance for every tin of antifoul we buy.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I've no idea if as a leisure user you can legitimately buy or use Jotun "professional" antifouls in the UK or not but I've seen 5 ltrs of Seaforce 30 advertised by a trade supplier at a little over £100.

Even if it's only got a comparable performance to what's available to us on the chandlers shelves - and I suspect as a Trade product it's actually significantly better - then it's blindingly obvious the leisure market is being well and truly screwed on both price and performance for every tin of antifoul we buy.

We wandered into a branch of West Marine in Florida. International micron 350 is over $200 for 2.5 litres. Now that’s expensive.

 

[Dellquay13]

I've no idea if as a leisure user you can legitimately buy or use Jotun "professional" antifouls in the UK or not but I've seen 5 ltrs of Seaforce 30 advertised by a trade supplier at a little over £100.

Even if it's only got a comparable performance to what's available to us on the chandlers shelves - and I suspect as a Trade product it's actually significantly better - then it's blindingly obvious the leisure market is being well and truly screwed on both price and performance for every tin of antifoul we buy.

It appears that in the uk the sale of these industrial A/Fs such as Jotun Seaforce is restricted as a controlled substance under the Control of Pesticides Regulations 1986.

 

[ducked]

I was shopping for antifreeze for use as a wood preservative recently, and some of them had "For professional use only" on their web pages. Probably not the ethylene glycol content, sinceI think thats still in {almost) all of them, though I suppose they could start substituting propylene glycol for DIY products. Maybe related to borate content, or just a more parenoid corporate lawyer.

That ""Restricted to professional users".jive is a general thing with anything toxic these days, presumably based on the experience and case law defying assumption that professional users are somehow safer, and more responsible, despite us all having plenty of DuPont product in our bloodstreams to demonstrate the contrary.

 

[Sailing steve]

It appears that in the uk the sale of these industrial A/Fs such as Jotun Seaforce is restricted as a controlled substance under the Control of Pesticides Regulations 1986.

Do you have a source for that?

I'm trying to discover if there really is any relevant legislation actually preventing leisure use of Seaforce or if it's merely a marketing wheeze by Jotun to force sailors into purchasing their Marie Nostrum products at double the price per litre instead.

 

[Dellquay13]

Do you have a source for that?

I'm trying to discover if there really is any relevant legislation actually preventing leisure use of Seaforce or if it's merely a marketing wheeze by Jotun to force sailors into purchasing their Marie Nostrum products at double the price per litre instead.

Rawlins paints say about Seaforce
“The Health & Safety Executive (HSE) deem them 'For professional use only'. This means we can only sell Jotun antifouling products to customers who confirm at the point of ordering that they will be applied in accordance with the appropriate HSE regulations.

‘Professional users are those who use such products in the course of their work. Under COPR they must have received adequate instruction and guidance in using the pesticide and be competent in its use, in order to protect human beings, other creatures and plants, safeguard the environment and avoid pollution of water. As a minimum pest controllers should be aware of pesticide legislation and use, and how to carry out risk assessment under the Control of Substance Hazardous to Health Regulations (COSHH)."


SML paints say about Seaforce
“Please note that for Health & Safety reasons we can only supply this product to commercial operators & shipyards for use by trained/professional applicators on commercial/working vessels.”

It may be that the use of such A/F is subject to a two pronged control, restricted to persons applying at as part of their normal business, and to use on commercial (not leisure) vessels only

Reading the descriptions of some of these products, they don’t actually sound as effective for us as we leisure boaters think, they talk about duty cycles of 60% or more, and average speeds around 15kts. I’d have to be having my boat towed around for 5 days a week to keep enough water flow over the hull to benefit fully from Seaforce

 

[Sailing steve]

Rawlins paints say about Seaforce
“The Health & Safety Executive (HSE) deem them 'For professional use only'. This means we can only sell Jotun antifouling products to customers who confirm at the point of ordering that they will be applied in accordance with the appropriate HSE regulations.

‘Professional users are those who use such products in the course of their work. Under COPR they must have received adequate instruction and guidance in using the pesticide and be competent in its use, in order to protect human beings, other creatures and plants, safeguard the environment and avoid pollution of water. As a minimum pest controllers should be aware of pesticide legislation and use, and how to carry out risk assessment under the Control of Substance Hazardous to Health Regulations (COSHH)."


SML paints say about Seaforce
“Please note that for Health & Safety reasons we can only supply this product to commercial operators & shipyards for use by trained/professional applicators on commercial/working vessels.”

It may be that the use of such A/F is subject to a two pronged control, restricted to persons applying at as part of their normal business, and to use on commercial (not leisure) vessels only

Reading the descriptions of some of these products, they don’t actually sound as effective for us as we leisure boaters think, they talk about duty cycles of 60% or more, and average speeds around 15kts. I’d have to be having my boat towed around for 5 days a week to keep enough water flow over the hull to fully benefit from Seaforce

Yeahbutt potentially anybody can comply with the H&S requirements once they find out what those requirements are and I expect a written risk assessment and appropriate PPE would be at the core of doing so.

COPR approval must already be in place otherwise nobody could buy Seaforce ...Biocidal products that fit into the product types (Seaforce does) in the table require COPR approval from HSE before they can be advertised, sold, supplied, stored or used in the UK.

That just leaves commercial/working vessels to attend to - and that I suspect is nothing more than weasel words from suppliers anxious to protect their profit margins, because from both a H&S and COPR perspective there's no difference whatsoever between using Seaforce on a leisure craft on one mooring and Seaforce on a fishing boat on the next mooring.

I'd certainly give Seaforce a try if I could get it and be assured there were no consequences - if nothing else it's half the price of anything else on the chandlers shelves.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

When shipyards in 1st world countries apply industrial A/F there will be a team in hiviz with name badges and clipboards making sure high levels of H&S and environmental protection are at least paid lip service.
Let me free with it and I’d start well with good intentions and insufficient knowledge and equipment but finish up cutting every inconvenient corner with a pile of disasters swept under a very lumpy carpet.

I’m not unversed in UK H&S law and practice for industry, I hold H&S general management qualifications, and previously managed H&S policies in construction related trades for quite a few years. I know how easy it is for inconvenient standards to slip when they aren’t rigorously applied.

Some of the industrial A/F seems to be very restricted. The 2 marine companies in our boatyard can’t get the stuff used by the dry dock people on the other side of the docks.
When it is used in our yard ‘under the radar’ you can tell by the strong smell left in the air.

I loved the bit with badges and clipboards.

I'm referring to those antifouls that can
only be purchased and applied by a boatyard but can go on boats that us punters have. I'm trying to remember their names , Seaqueen ? I may be having an "age experience" on all this so happy to be corrected

 

[Dellquay13]

Yeahbutt potentially anybody can comply with the H&S requirements once they find out what those requirements are and I expect a written risk assessment and appropriate PPE would be at the core of doing so.

At the core would be demonstrating competent understanding of the product and risks, SSoW following Codes of Practice, Control measures that follow the hierarchy of control (PPE should always be the last resort after all other controls have been reasonably considered), proof of competency via training for the person working, and a proper paper trail to back it up.
That might satisfy a boatyard manager that they would allow it to be used diy in their yard. A bit of paper with generic rams, printout COSHH sheet and cheap ppe wouldn’t protect the yard from the HSE if anything went wrong.

An example in the yard I use is soda blasting. It was stopped after a couple of small outfits started coming in booked independently by boat owners, backed by rams and ppe. They came in at weekends when there was less staff about, made mess all over the gravel and other boats. They were uncontactable by the yard for redress. Subsequently it was banned, until one firm with demonstrable Safe Systems of Work, and supervised at all times by one of the trusted engineering companies based at the yard, made their case to the management.

 

[Dellquay13]

I loved the bit with badges and clipboards.

I'm referring to those antifouls that can
only be purchased and applied by a boatyard but can go on boats that us punters have. I'm trying to remember their names , Seaqueen ? I may be having an "age experience" on all this so happy to be corrected

I wasn’t aware of AF in between consumer and industrial grades.
I’ve only been using pro help on boats for the last 3-4 years, all diy for 20years before that.
The pro boat service companies that I have recently known only use the same consumer brands on leisure boats as I can get over the counter.
Maybe it was different for them 20 years ago?

 

[Dellquay13]

I loved the bit with badges and clipboards.

Don’t forget the clip on ties

 

[Snowgoose-1]

I wasn’t aware of AF in between consumer and industrial grades.
I’ve only been using pro help on boats for the last 3-4 years, all diy for 20years before that.
The pro boat service companies that I have recently known only use the same consumer brands on leisure boats as I can get over the counter.
Maybe it was different for them 20 years ago?

Apologies. I am way out of date. As you mention, antifoul is only only boatowner or commercial now.

 

[Graham376]

Yes but------
In European countries like Netherlands (and others) these highly dangerous antifouls (like Jotun and others) are available to yachtsmen over the counter. The H&S issues seem to be around how the paint is applied and thus the level of PPE worn. Big ships use big spray painters while small yachts might use a 4 inch brush and the dangers are different. They need to be managed by the boatyard/ship repair yard accordingly rather like issues around surface preparation should be. I have not noticed any strong smell from these paints, perhaps they are using thinners?
In the real world these paints are available under the counter if you know where to look and local fishing vessels have no problems getting them and applying them. I have used Hempel Olympic in the past and Jotun Seaforce currently. Both work OK as long as the boat gets used fairly regularly.

Jotun Seaforce available here in Portugal and it now comes from UK factory since Spanish one closed. Jotun Iberia tell me there are no restrictions on use.

The commercial sector is very competitive with much lower profit margins and I would suggest the UK restrictions are to enable them to flog leisure products on which they make more money.

 

[Bobc]

I am told that CU 45 is basically the same as Jotun Seaforce 30.

SML contracted it when they were no longer allowed to sell Seaforce to the public.