Anti-lassooing device

[jwilson]

Last time we used the lasso system ..... Wind against tide, 25-30 kts of wind and 3kts of tide....... Even two burly marines hanging over the bow couldn't have caught and attached us, but SWBO managed easily and the winch did the hard work

That's exactly the sort of stress that buoys are not designed to take via a rope round the base. You may get away with it 1/10/20/100 times, but eventually something will break - either the welded eye joint on a Polyform PVC type buoy or the thin GRP skin of a hard buoy. Once the skin is pierced by a crack the inner faom gets waterlogged and the weight of the chain can sink the buoy. Either way the owner of the mooring has lost his mooring until a diver goes down to retrieve the chain.

The buoy I lost had a perfectly good pickup buoy attached, with a 12mm pickup rope strong enough to temporarily moor to while you retrieved the two 25mm strops.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Given the circumstances I describe no . The alternative of trying to reach an eye from a pitching deck is unsafe and poor seamanship . Ownership of the mooring is not a relevance . it is accepted practice wherever I have sailed , which includes the Western Isles, to pick up a free mooring that is capable of taking your boat and in good condition on the understanding that you are prepared to vacate if the owner returns .

Of course. But it is not accepted practice, is it, to do it in a way which is likely to cause significant damage to the mooring? Even those who defend lassooing normally say that it's done simply to bring the buoy close to attach a rope, that no great loads are involved and that they would never do it for long. You are welcome to take whatever risks you wish with your own mooring, but it's rather unsporting when it belongs to somebody else.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to think about how to tie up correctly and safely in the future? There are, for example, various devices which attach to poles or boathooks and thread a line through an eye.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I really must take issue with your latter statement. Growing a beard actually SAVES time, around 10 mins every morning for over 30 years = (365x35)/(6x24)= 88 days in my case. That's about 2 1/2 months of shaving I have avoided. I can thoroughly recommend it to, the extra time in bed is lovely.

If one is an old gaffer, though, doesn't one have to spend those days learning how to play a melodeon?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Thanks, very helpful, we have problems with buoys with a soft rope top eye or no pick up buoy, that method will work well.

Until you rip the buoy off the riser, of course, by putting stresses on the connection between them for which the mooring was not designed. But hey, you can go and find another one if that happens and let the poor mug who owns the mooring deal with the damage.

Please, please don't do this unless you have been given permission by the mooring owner to treat it that way.

 

[Searush]

Maybe this is a silly comment, or just stating the bleedin' obvious, but if people abuse such buoys to the point of destroying them, why persist with using that type of buoy?

CHT visitor moorings don't have strops, (allegedly to prevent claims following strop failure) they just have a D-shackle which is quite difficult to pass a rope thro, so in strong wind/ tide conditions when single handed I always lasso them. But they are GRP with a metal shaft thro the centre that connects the shackle to the riser. They are never going to be damaged by lassoing.

 

[penfold]

Being high sided we do it on mooring buoys with eyes when the tide is running or its windy. Then in comfort and safety we can pass a rope through the eye and release the lasso. On two occasions when there was no alternative and it was blowing and bouncy we just put 4 lassos over the buoy and rode to those overnight . Cannot see how that would damage a riser particularly as most are chain.

This seems to be exactly the behaviour the OP is incensed by; it's a bit disingenuous to say you have no alternative if you've an anchor and chain on board.

 

[lpdsn]

Maybe this is a silly comment, or just stating the bleedin' obvious, but if people abuse such buoys to the point of destroying them, why persist with using that type of buoy?

Maybe it's just a form of natural selection and buoys vulnerable to lasooing with just slowly sink out of the picture.

 

[jwilson]

Maybe this is a silly comment, or just stating the bleedin' obvious, but if people abuse such buoys to the point of destroying them, why persist with using that type of buoy?

And what type of buoy is made that is designed to be lassoed, and is still soft enough not to damage the mooring owner's hull?

and another quote "But they are GRP with a metal shaft thro the centre that connects the shackle to the riser. They are never going to be damaged by lassoing." These are exactly the ones that seem to be MOST vulnerable - the thin GRP shell is designed to keep air in, not take any great stress. Yes you COULD make them strong enough, but they'd be very heavy indeed, and have to be bigger and hence even heavier to retain buoyancy.

 

[lw395]

Maybe this is a silly comment, or just stating the bleedin' obvious, but if people abuse such buoys to the point of destroying them, why persist with using that type of buoy?

CHT visitor moorings don't have strops, (allegedly to prevent claims following strop failure) they just have a D-shackle which is quite difficult to pass a rope thro, so in strong wind/ tide conditions when single handed I always lasso them. But they are GRP with a metal shaft thro the centre that connects the shackle to the riser. They are never going to be damaged by lassoing.

Because I chose my buoy to suit my boat and the way I choose to use it.
It's a fairly exposed mooring, so any hard buoy is going to take the paint off the bow at best.

Actually there were some hard buoys around but somehow the sailing schools prefer to abuse the soft ones.

 

[Uricanejack]

Just an observation from a distant observer.
Who has never lassoed or seen any lassooing actualy carried out.
It does not appear to be a common practice over here.

Lasooing some one elses mooring bouy would appear to be a rather anti social habit.
It appears to really upset mooring owners.

Lassooing is clearly controversial. Harmfull or not I've no idea. Yet it clearly causes offense.

Common courtesy would be not to use controversial techniques on some one elses gear.

On your own or a public mooring lassoo to your hearts content.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Just an observation from a distant observer.
Who has never lassoed or seen any lassooing actualy carried out.
It does not appear to be a common practice over here.

Lasooing some one elses mooring bouy would appear to be a rather anti social habit.
It appears to really upset mooring owners.

Lassooing is clearly controversial. Harmfull or not I've no idea. Yet it clearly causes offense.

Common courtesy would be not to use controversial techniques on some one elses gear.

On your own or a public mooring lassoo to your hearts content.

+0.9.

The 0.1 is because "public moorings" also belong to someone, and sunk or damaged public moorings aren't available to people who need them, possibly in a hurry.

 

[Pye_End]

Actually there were some hard buoys around but somehow the sailing schools prefer to abuse the soft ones.

Perhaps a letter to the RYA asking them to discourage such practice in their training might be beneficial.

 

[akyaka]

In view of the fact that several people have given examples of moorings damaged or sunk by this practice, perhaps you could explain the definition of "safest" which you are using?

The examples would seem to be anecdotal or conjecture;I would suggest that most buoys are lost due to the riser shackle wearing through the bottom plastic eye .The "soft" buoys about which there is concern have an attached pick up buoy, well certainly the ones in active use I have seen , and therefore do not need to be lassoed as even with a sea running the rope is relatively easy to pick up with a boat hook. Its those with just a hard eye on top which it is easier and safer to initially lasso and these have a through rod. I wouldn't trust threading through one with just a soft eye .

It has been suggested that a pick up device should be used. Well I have two and from experience can say using them successfully when the bows bouncing is more by good luck that judgement and certainly a lot less safe than lassoeing then passing a rope through the eye later when things have calmed down.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The examples would seem to be anecdotal or conjecture;I would suggest that most buoys are lost due to the riser shackle wearing through the bottom plastic eye .

I am disappointed that you choose to discount eyewitness reports of lassooing damaging moorings as "anecdotal", but please to see that acknowledge that the connection between buoy and riser is a weak spot.

It has been suggested that a pick up device should be used. Well I have two and from experience can say using them successfully when the bows bouncing is more by good luck that judgement and certainly a lot less safe than lassoeing then passing a rope through the eye later when things have calmed down.

With all due respect, I really do suggest that you (or your crew) learn to do things properly rather than endanger other people's moorings. If it takes a little more time to tie up correctly, take that time. Or tie up in a marina.

 

[dunedin]

I find this post staggering - that some folk seem to think it is appropriate to use techniques like winching in a lassoo rope round somebody else's buoy in a stong wind, or lying overnight to lassoo ropes.
Sad to see that common courtesy and respect for other people's property doesn't seem to apply

Reminds me of a boat that came into Loch Ranza a couple of years back. They arrived late so the visitor moorings full, but masses of space to anchor up.
Instead they picked up a private local mooring - marked clearly as such. It was also in fairly shallow water so could have been for a lightweight RIB or equivalent. But they tied on - then rammed into full astern and hammered backwards for a very long way at about 5 knots, apparently dragging the mooring with them. Certainly didn't return to where they had started. A small number of prats do disrepute to everybody else

 

[Searush]

I find this post staggering - that some folk seem to think it is appropriate to use techniques like winching in a lassoo rope round somebody else's buoy in a stong wind, or lying overnight to lassoo ropes.
Sad to see that common courtesy and respect for other people's property doesn't seem to apply

Reminds me of a boat that came into Loch Ranza a couple of years back. They arrived late so the visitor moorings full, but masses of space to anchor up.
Instead they picked up a private local mooring - marked clearly as such. It was also in fairly shallow water so could have been for a lightweight RIB or equivalent. But they tied on - then rammed into full astern and hammered backwards for a very long way at about 5 knots, apparently dragging the mooring with them. Certainly didn't return to where they had started. A small number of prats do disrepute to everybody else

and isn't that true of life in general?

 

[akyaka]

With all due respect, I really do suggest that you (or your crew) learn to do things properly rather than endanger other people's moorings. If it takes a little more time to tie up correctly, take that time. Or tie up in a marina.

I consider the specific circumstances which I have described under which I lasso a mooring to be a proper and seamanlike and the safe option and I would appreciate the courtesy of your reading this . We only do it from our boat in the UK which is based on a swinging mooring in an area where there are few marinas and even these you cannot just pop into.You cannot seriously believe that our very occasional ( probably once a year) temporary lassoeing of a hard eyed mooring buoy in circumstances when it is the safest option endangers the mooring - I would suggest that its more likely poor maintenace. Out here its lazy lines or anchor so no problems.Your thoughts of looking to keep people off your mooring suggest you are also an advocate of putting your dinghy alongside when tied up.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I consider the specific circumstances which I have described under which I lasso a mooring to be a proper and seamanlike and the safe option and I would appreciate the courtesy of your reading this .

Most people who defend lassooing do so on the basis that they use it only to exert very gentle force on the buoy, bringing it alongside to attach a mooring line correctly. You, however, have acknowledged that the buoy-riser connection is vulnerable yet still feel no qualms about using this technique in wild conditions. That is improper, unseamanlike and unsafe. Worse than that, it's rude.

Your thoughts of looking to keep people off your mooring suggest you are also an advocate of putting your dinghy alongside when tied up.

If you read the thread you would have seen that I have no problem whatsoever with people using my mooring when I am away, provided they use it properly and don't damage it. I would never dream of trying to deter rafters up, with a dinghy or otherwise, though I would be peeved if someone tied onto my stanchions, failed to use their own shorelines and then claimed that their laziness was actually the proper, seamanlike and safe option.

 

[akyaka]

You, however, have acknowledged that the buoy-riser connection is vulnerable yet still feel no qualms about using this technique in wild conditions. That is improper, unseamanlike and unsafe. Worse than that, it's rude.

Not on the buoy type I am referring to and yes I feel no qualms about carrying out a safe seamanlike practice as against one which is dangerous , leaning down to try and pass a rope through an eye from a pitching bow. Its most certainly not rude.

I would be peeved if someone tied onto my stanchions, failed to use their own shorelines and then claimed that their laziness was actually the proper, seamanlike and safe option.

We have a point of total agreement except I would go further and say I would be peeved full stop and would do something about it

 

[lpdsn]

Not on the buoy type I am referring to and yes I feel no qualms about carrying out a safe seamanlike practice as against one which is dangerous , leaning down to try and pass a rope through an eye from a pitching bow. Its most certainly not rude.

As an aside to the great debate, it is often easier & safer on boats with high-sided bows to bring the stern alongside the buoy to tie on a line led from the bow.