Another YM question...

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Easier to argue yes, but these things happen..... any boat owner who claims never to have made a bad decision is IMHO probably a liar!......

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I never make bad decisions, just don't always select the optimum option /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
At least by now he knows whether the boat heaves-to or not, that the berths need modification for sea use, that the source of the water slopping around the cabin floor needs investigating, that preparation of food before setting off is a necessary precaution, that a regular and reliable source of weather info is needed, that his waterproofs aren't and a whole stack of other stuff which is usually called "experience". He should end up "a sadder but wiser man"!
 
Critical factor is what's happening with the tide. Crossing the top of the Alderney race if a spring tide and wind against it is asking for trouble (we were knocked down a couple of times there in exactly these conditions.
I'd double up everything, get back in the tender and sleep in a bus shelter.
 
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On second thoughts, it's Darwinian theory in practice. If this numpty who probably is overweight, smokes and drives a 4wd has got himself into a mess without knowing the first thing about his boat, then I feel sorry for his crew who should have known better

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You rang sir?

Well as an overweight ex-smoker with a 4x4 and a very capable boat even with 2 double aft cabins I cannot see why you throw in your personal prejudices to an otherwise reasoned discussion. Would you like to join Big Brother?
 
Another thing to be wary of is the way the disturbed water from the Alderney Race carries well out into the channel.

Years ago I rmember sailng from Gurnsey to Cherboug, doing it all by the book and going through the middle of the race. We were bounced about for hours.

We watched a Mini Transat cut right in off Cap de la Hauge, practically snatching the seagulls off the rocks. Nipped round the corner and was into Cherbourg hours before us.

Now, if going that way, I'll always go close to save many miles in broken water. You'll never hit the shore as the tide sweeps you past too quickly.
 
I cut in close once in a F2 and we were almost putting the hatchboards in, not a place I'd want to be in rough weather despite acheiving 20knots SOG with 6knots through the water
 
We cut in very close to Cap d l Hague running from Gurnsey to Cherbourg last year, there was little wind, so I wanted to take a look close in. The sea was very confused even in a F2.

Once around the Cap we ground to a halt as we hit the west going inshore eddy. We then had to make our way about a mile or so off shore to pick up the east going flood.
 
Although Magnacockup is right to focus on the options having made the mistake perhaps of leaving in the first place (cos it's edjukashunal), it's also important to figure what might have been done when setting back to the boat in the tender - on the basis of learning about prevention rather than cure. Maybe...
1, Use the VHF to get a latest weather forecast, maybe before taking the buoy in Braye but certainly on returning from the pub.
2, Check out/accurately estimate how much fuel there might actually be (there's usually more than 'first guess' and assuming he left Blighty with a full tank, he should still have plenty)
3, Form a view about the viability of the existing mooring.
3, Work out a plan a) and then a plan b) even a c). It's easier to plan when moored.
4, Prepare boat and crew for a blow, whether staying put or leaving.

Having made the above errors though and found myself with Plan a) going pearshaped, faced with an gale, big seas and strong tidal effects, and maybe in a boat I wasn't entirely certain about, I think I'd probably use every bit of fuel I had left if I had to and make as much progress north/NW as possible. The fuel is doing no good sitting in the tank, it's what the engine is for, and I could always beg borrow a tow when reaching a safer shore. At least that way, I'd soon have rather more options, more quickly and more searoom. I'd need to be pretty sure about my remaining fuel and/or further change of conditions before attempting Cherburg. The hard thing though is resisting the temptation (probably from crew) that a close harbour can't be any more dangerous to reach than bouncing about for hours on end at sea.
 
By close, I mean a mile or so off. All right it's bumpy, but it doesn't last for long, unlike going through the middle of the Alderney Race.

Mind you, if you go rock hopping, there is someting of an inside pasage, al la Portland. Studied this in a SW6 and a springish flood, from the shore.
 
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What are people's views on this, because my experience is that modern boat designs are not at all happy under main alone in a blow, and much much better under just jib, and should you need to free off to run off downwind, then a main alone would be a complete liability, and with an exhausted crew and heavy seas, re-hoisting the jib, and dropping the main to swap them over would be both dangerous and maybe even impossible...... thoughts?

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I was out a few weeks ago in 35-45kts testing a new storm jib with a double reefed main. I was surprised at how much weather helm was induced in a strong gust, I had to steer heavily to counter the rounding up to the point I could feel the rudder going light and probably starting to stall, luckily the gust eased in time before broaching.

My boat is a '73 masthead sloop with main and 150% genoa, lead fin keel and balanced rudder and not a modern 'fat bottomed' design. I've certainly thought of having 3rd reef points fitted and would be cautious of just the main in those conditions.

Does anyone carry a trysail these days? I don't because of all the complications of mast track etc.
 
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We cut in very close to Cap d l Hague running from Gurnsey to Cherbourg last year, there was little wind, so I wanted to take a look close in. The sea was very confused even in a F2.


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Our route up from the Little Russel will pass a mile maybe west of Cap De La Hague if headed northbound, but to a waypoint well north of the point itself at which we turn then due East to another north of Omonville or Basse Brefort buoy, after which we will go directly for Cherbourg. The reason as you said is the inshore back eddy tide which is usually running by the time you get there having left St Peter Port with the tide. We once many years back motorsailed at 8kts whilst standing absolutely still over the ground off Basse Brefort after turning for Cherbourg too soon, you only get stuck like that once before it sinks in the memory bank. What is strange is that the eddy never seems that strong when using it to get up to Cap De La Hague when headed west.

Close in off Cap De La Hague going up through the Race is quite educational, because the tide is taking you NE so fast that you have to point East, like straight at the rocks in order to maintain the required COG. It is very difficult to make yourself point this way without a cockpit GPS or Plotter data to show what is really happening. Likewise once say due North of Basse Brefort and you turn towards Cherbourg, the strong tide means a course required of around 130 (memory) needs a heading of maybe 150 degs, useful if the leg is upwind as in this little poser and why I said having tacked out to see a mile or two it MIGHT calm down enough to consider a tack back to Cherbourg.

The Race affects the tides well out and the NE set is there to about 8mls out. The rough bit on the flood tide is north of the line from Alderney to CDH and runs several miles along the French Coast so it isn't just in the Race itself.

BTW I know most people here do know this, I added it for those new to the area.
 
Alternatively you could do it the way the professionals do it (a la Napoli). You could put out a mayday and jump into the liferaft /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
Very Interesting thread, thanks MC.

A number have questioned the decision to leave Braye, and I would like to emphasise the point. My experience there in NE and F8 is that there is a great deal of difference between discomfort and danger. It was very uncomfortable, though we had moved over to the eastern side of the harbour, just till we had enough depth. It was bouncy all night, but perfectly safe.
 
Just want to add an actual experience.

Sailed to Bray with one crew in a 38' AWB. Weeks holiday intending to go to St Malo. Had to go to Bray to pick up a friend who lived on Aldernay and was coming with us.

Plan was a quick pick up with 1 beer and then sleep the night in Bray.

While ashore Wind got up to NW about F5 and once back on board I quickly saw both crew going green. Checked tide it was S going.

Said not ideal as about 23.00 and we have had a beer and time for bed but think we should immediately head for Guernsey. Visibility good and had chart plotter with repeater at the helm.

As back up had a hand held GPS with waypoints for the line down the swinge and little Russel.

We left under engine and used only genoa going down the swinge. Arrived at St Peters Port about 03.00 tired but no sea sickness and after a kip all ready to set off again.

I believe if we had stayed everyone would have quickly been sea sick and we would not be going anywhere until a quiet 24hrs in Bray to recover.

I have been through Aldernay Race and the Swinge now about 50 times never worse than F6 and always with the tide (rarely at slack water) and I have never had any problems. I am concerned that maybe I have been lucky but the books seem to indicate its a terrible stretch of water. I have spoken to people who said their boat were spun round but at present I am still cautious but wonder what am I not seeing/noticing.

I cannot emphasis enough how uncomfortable it was in Bray and although I looked around I could not see anywhere where it was much better and that I would be happy to anchor. Draw 2m and large tidal range at Bray! Lesson learnt is don't contemplate bray in a N or NE.
 
I think the question related to NE gale and folks homeward bound. The question relates to leaving Braye to go in relatively unsafe conditions. I would prefer to be sick than dead.

BTW - If you had a problem in F5 NW in Braye /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif, then.... well we must have different boats....
 
I was not offering this particular experience as a solution to the question posed.

We do have different boats and I could literally see the other 2 crew going green. I have read about going green but its the first time I have actually seen it. I just knew that if we stayed it would kill the first few days of our holiday.

Like many situations the boat could handle the conditions but the crew could not.

On the same boat I stayed at anchor in Bilbao in a F8 with the boat acting like a bucking bronco and either I had better sea legs then or the motion was sufficiently different.
 
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BTW - If you had a problem in F5 NW in Braye /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif, then.... well we must have different boats....

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Indeed - but then not everyone sails H&P designed boats /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
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