Another RNLI Boat Out of Use

[Bru]

Read the accounts of the Sables lifeboat disaster.
Look at the photos. Ask yourself....
The crews of lifeboats go to sea when all others are safely ashore or have run for cover. It takes a special type of person to do that. The mentality to take to sea in the face of certain danger and possible death does not get worried about standing on a cabin roof without a safety harness and anti drop line suspended from above just inncase you slip or fall over.

With respect, that sort of utterly stupid thinking is PRECISELY why we needed health and safety legislation in the bleedin' first place

How utterly moronic is it to take a totally unnecessary risk that can be easily avoided or mitigated?

And how useful is a lifeboat crew member to the task of saving lives at sea if he or she has broken themselves by falling off whilst cleaning the boat when there was no need to take that risk?

C'mon Chris, be serious!

 

[Motor_Sailor]

With respect, that sort of utterly stupid thinking is PRECISELY why we needed health and safety legislation in the bleedin' first place

Indeed. The idea on any rescue team is that you should take calculated risks where necessary to achieve your ends. That is, taking unavoidable risks in order to save a life only when no other options are available.

The problem is that the inherent nature of 'rescue' and the people it attracts, can lead to the culture within a team becoming reckless. Those who can't distinguish between ordinary situations where ordinary levels of care and safety are required and 'rescue situations' are a liability. Just because you're heading off to rescue someone on an ice fast crag at night in a blizzard doesn't mean you need not bother wearing a seatbelt in the Landrover while driving in along the valley. The two situations are completely unrelated.

 

[RichardS]

Rotrax,

this is a problem for all charities, I was got at for letting a young teenage boy up a proper aircrew ladder( a design which seemed perfectly good for decades, this was an immaculate example ) to fulfil his dream of sitting in a Hawker Hunter cockpit, despite my and his father being with him every step of the way.

I used to work with a REAL Health & Safety guy at BAe Dunsfold, he was a proper engineer and wouldn't have come up with the BS amateurs like to make up as they go along

I feel your pain Andy ... you're spot on.

When I was in a role where I was responsible for H & S, we had an external H & S audit and were criticised because we did not provide specific training to the building maintenance team in how to erect and use a step-ladder (the normal domestic size) and we did not provide a risk assessment, nor the training, for the office staff on the first floor about how to carry boxes of photocopier paper (5 reams = 11 kg) up the single flight of stairs to the photocopier.

I pointed out that all the maintenance team would have used step-ladders at home and all the office staff would have carried weights like that upstairs at home, although we did ask the question in both cases, so did we really need to do risk assessments and run training courses. The answer was Yes. :ambivalence:

Richard

 

[Seajet]

Richard,

our sailing club is at the meeting of Langstone and Chichester harbours - in WWII there were the quite sophisticated decoy systems ' Starfish 16 ' with controllable fires and the electronic ' Aspirin ' to bend the German RDF and lure the Luftwaffe bombers away from the vital Portsmouth docks, though I doubt the residents of Hayling Island or Langstone Village were too chuffed.

Our moorings still have circular patches of much softer mud...

My friends' dad Robin Milne was a Test Pilot for Airspeed, one of his daily jobs was counting the craters.

One day when we were out on a mooring works party a newbie smartarse chirped up " we ought to do a Risk Assessment for this ! "

' Well we're walking on tons of unexploded top quality German ordnance, how are you going to factor that in then ? '

 

[dom]

When I was in a role where I was responsible for H & S, we had an external H & S audit and were criticised because we did not provide specific training to the building maintenance team in how to erect and use a step-ladder (the normal domestic size)...

I pointed out that all the maintenance team would have used step-ladders at home and....

...so did we really need to do risk assessments and run training courses. The answer was Yes. :ambivalence:

Quite right. Not everyone knows how to use a step ladder safely - talk to any A&E Department! Also people feel more pressure to perform at work.

Nothing lost by giving a quick demo first.

 

[Blue Sunray]

With respect, that sort of utterly stupid thinking is PRECISELY why we needed health and safety legislation in the bleedin' first place

How utterly moronic is it to take a totally unnecessary risk that can be easily avoided or mitigated?

And how useful is a lifeboat crew member to the task of saving lives at sea if he or she has broken themselves by falling off whilst cleaning the boat when there was no need to take that risk?

C'mon Chris, be serious!

+1

with the caveat that that sort of attitude deserves no respect at all.

 

[RichardS]

Quite right. Not everyone knows how to use a step ladder safely - talk to any A&E Department! Also people feel more pressure to perform at work.

Nothing lost by giving a quick demo first.

Those guys were up and down proper ladders working at 20 or 30 feet, for which they were given proper training. Giving them training in using step ladders would be farcical. Other employees of the type who might end up in A & E did not have access to step ladders for that very reason.

Richard

 

[dogleg]

I have now been to our boathouse and read the communication sent to all stations immediately after a meeting was held at Peterhead. It makes clear that personal differences and long standing personality antagonism between
some crew with a refusal to communicate with each other which had been going on for sometime led to the decision to put boat off service as it was considered that these personal problems could affect the operational efficiency of the boat. No where was H& S mentioned. The roof cleaning episode I believe took place while the boat was at its berth. The Tamar unlike other ALB's has a curved roof with no anti slip coating, roof cleaning if needed is done with specialist equipment held at the divisional base.

Some on here may chose to disbelieve this but ask yourself would HQ put out a deliberately false picture when many of on the coast have inside info.

 

[dom]

I have now been to our boathouse and read the communication sent to all stations immediately after a meeting was held at Peterhead. It makes clear that personal differences and long standing personality antagonism between
some crew with a refusal to communicate with each other which had been going on for sometime led to the decision to put boat off service as it was considered that these personal problems could affect the operational efficiency of the boat. No where was H& S mentioned. The roof cleaning episode I believe took place while the boat was at its berth. The Tamar unlike other ALB's has a curved roof with no anti slip coating, roof cleaning if needed is done with specialist equipment held at the divisional base.

Some on here may chose to disbelieve this but ask yourself would HQ put out a deliberately false picture when many of on the coast have inside info.

Very interesting - makes sense.

 

[rotrax]

I read into the OP exactly what you state-antagonism and feuding between crew.

H&S is a smokescreen here.

The trouble with H&S requirements is that you are censured by some if you do, and sued after an accident if you havent.

I know of three serious motorsports incidents where huge damages were awarded resulting in the loss of all asets of two parties. All three were H&S related and the charge was negligence. And, IMHO, they were. They though H&S was a load of old bolleux. Well, they found out the truth soon enough, and caused great upset in motorcycle racing administration and training for five years. UK Motorsport is now seen a leader in Motorsports admin and marshall training worldwide. So, its been worth it.

One of the three parties was lucky.

He had bugger all, so no one chased him.

 

[dogleg]

Very interesting - makes sense.

I should also have said that the personal differences between some crew members was readily apparent at the meeting with RNLI officials and with the independent mediator brought in to attempt to find a resolution.

 

[chanelyacht]

Some on here may chose to disbelieve this but ask yourself would HQ put out a deliberately false picture when many of on the coast have inside info.

Ask the New Quay crew...or Jersey...or New Brighton.... downright provable lies have been tweeted by Poole.

What idiot builds so much design cost into a boat that you can't clean it's roof FFS...

 

[Blue Sunray]

Ask the New Quay crew...or Jersey...or New Brighton.... downright provable lies have been tweeted by Poole.

What idiot builds so much design cost into a boat that you can't clean it's roof FFS...

:sleeping:

 

[prv]

What idiot builds so much design cost into a boat that you can't clean it's roof FFS...

It does seem a little bit odd that "specialist equipment" is needed - even without going onto the wheelhouse roof itself, you'd have thought that a brush and mop could be reached over the windscreen from the upper steering position, and perhaps (for the forward extremity) wielded by someone standing in reasonable safety on the centreline hatch in front of the lower windscreen.

I agree, though, that lifesaving risks taken on a shout have no bearing on whether it's ok in a work environment for someone to stroll around up top unprotected just to clean off birdshit. I'd do it (carefully) on my own boat, but I wouldn't be surprised that my company won't (I know full-well they won't) let me take that risk on their behalf.

Pete

 

[Daydream believer]

Bird droppings can carry some pretty harmful diseases. That is possibly why the RNLI take the view that those tasked with cleaning should have the correct equipment.
I would also suggest that crews who are too sloppy to keep their lifeboat looking smart ( it is after all an advert for the RNLI) may well have an attitude that is too sloppy to take it to sea
moving on to comments re H & S one might suggest that the attitude taken by some posters shows that it might be them that the regs are designe to protect

 

[Bru]

It's not just people in inherently high risk occupations (either employed or voluntary), familiarty breeds, well if not contempt certainly a casual disregard for safety

Let's take the step ladder example. People use them at home, it's true. People who've been trained in ladder work may indeed think that a step ladder is a piece of wee wee to use

And yet people get hurt, sometimes badly hurt, falling a few feet off a step ladder precisely because they don't perceive the risk - and sometimes because they haven't been shown how to use the ladder correctly and just assume they know (how to lock it to prevent it folding for example)

So if people are using step ladders in the course of their work, then it's absolutely right and reasonable to expect their employer to ensure that they know how to use them correctly and do so, not to just assume that they do

And the lifting and carrying of 11kg boxes of paper. Seen the HSE guidelines on lifting have we? My wife wishes she had sooner because if she had she probably wouldn't have a permanently bad back from lifting a 10kg box of soft drinks, turning around and putting it down. Just as simple as that. A lifelong (currently fairly minor and hopefully so it will remain) health problem caused by one incorrectly carried out lift and shift of something you'd likely pick up in the supermarket without thinking about it

So again, if an employees role involves lifting and carrying, too right they should be trained how to do it properly!

I swear some of you would happily return to the days when people were crippled by the age of 40, lost fingers and toes routinely, died trying to earn a living and so on.

I make no apologies for having a bit of a rant, this sort of thing makes my blood boil having seen first hand the result of the lamentable lack of health and safety in industry etc. in the past

Just to fill that picture in, my grandfather used to have to hang himself off a door frame regularly to stretch his back and stop it seizing up as a result of breaking his back in the shipyards. Another elderly relative coughed himself to death, literally, when I was a child as a result of lung disease contracted at work. I saw a bloke lose all the fingers on his right hand on a surface grinder, another the same on both hands in a 60 tonne press, a third half cut his arm off, a fourth partially blinded by a bursting grinding wheel and although I was not present a former fellow apprentice died falling into a lift shaft - and I came bloody close to doing the same thing myself. All of this in the late 70s and early 80s and every single one of those incidents, and tens of thousands of others, absolutely and totally avoidable.

 

[Seajet]

A rounded, slippery wheelhouse roof does sound dodgy to me, thanks for the info' which puts a different complexion on H & S !

I have two great friends who are second generation RNLI, I'd certainly trust my boat and life ( but maybe not my girlfriend ) to them.

https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/...=6951e3f7b501d4a9e71de206064109da&action=view

 

[Blue Sunray]

It's not just people in inherently high risk occupations (either employed or voluntary), familiarty breeds, well if not contempt certainly a casual disregard for safety

Let's take the step ladder example. People use them at home, it's true. People who've been trained in ladder work may indeed think that a step ladder is a piece of wee wee to use

And yet people get hurt, sometimes badly hurt, falling a few feet off a step ladder precisely because they don't perceive the risk - and sometimes because they haven't been shown how to use the ladder correctly and just assume they know (how to lock it to prevent it folding for example)

So if people are using step ladders in the course of their work, then it's absolutely right and reasonable to expect their employer to ensure that they know how to use them correctly and do so, not to just assume that they do

And the lifting and carrying of 11kg boxes of paper. Seen the HSE guidelines on lifting have we? My wife wishes she had sooner because if she had she probably wouldn't have a permanently bad back from lifting a 10kg box of soft drinks, turning around and putting it down. Just as simple as that. A lifelong (currently fairly minor and hopefully so it will remain) health problem caused by one incorrectly carried out lift and shift of something you'd likely pick up in the supermarket without thinking about it

So again, if an employees role involves lifting and carrying, too right they should be trained how to do it properly!

I swear some of you would happily return to the days when people were crippled by the age of 40, lost fingers and toes routinely, died trying to earn a living and so on.

I make no apologies for having a bit of a rant, this sort of thing makes my blood boil having seen first hand the result of the lamentable lack of health and safety in industry etc. in the past

Just to fill that picture in, my grandfather used to have to hang himself off a door frame regularly to stretch his back and stop it seizing up as a result of breaking his back in the shipyards. Another elderly relative coughed himself to death, literally, when I was a child as a result of lung disease contracted at work. I saw a bloke lose all the fingers on his right hand on a surface grinder, another the same on both hands in a 60 tonne press, a third half cut his arm off, a fourth partially blinded by a bursting grinding wheel and although I was not present a former fellow apprentice died falling into a lift shaft - and I came bloody close to doing the same thing myself. All of this in the late 70s and early 80s and every single one of those incidents, and tens of thousands of others, absolutely and totally avoidable.

:encouragement:

I suspect that 'H&S gone mad' posters are retired desk jockeys who draw their ideas of risk and 'heroism' from Victor Comics and the Daily Mail and have not been near or seen the consequences of a nasty accident.

 

[RichardS]

:encouragement:

I suspect that 'H&S gone mad' posters are retired desk jockeys who draw their ideas of risk and 'heroism' from Victor Comics and the Daily Mail and have not been near or seen the consequences of a nasty accident.

Thank the Lord that those present on the 6th June 1944 were all clearly retired desk jockeys.

Richard

 

[penberth3]

:encouragement:

I suspect that 'H&S gone mad' posters are retired desk jockeys who draw their ideas of risk and 'heroism' from Victor Comics and the Daily Mail and have not been near or seen the consequences of a nasty accident.

I think you're right. Without checking, when the HASAW Act appeared in 1974, ISTR there were 20 people a week being killed at work. Still three people a week being killed in the construction industry. Anyone think that's acceptable in the 21st century?