johnalison
Well-Known Member
That's where you went wrong. Tourist trip boats have right of way over all other craft. You should have known that.
Another Colregs question.
- Thread starter ProDave
- Start date
That's where you went wrong. Tourist trip boats have right of way over all other craft. You should have known that.
Stemar
Well-Known Member
My reading of the colregs is that a risk of collision exists as soon as two vessels are approaching one another and the bearing of one from the other doesn't change appreciably - or enough in the event of meeting a large vessel. On that basis, there was a risk of collision from the moment the OP saw the other boat and thought, he could get a bit close, better keep an eye on him.
In such a case, the other boat was technically incorrect to turn to port, but no harm was done. Maybe he had a good reason to want to be on that side of the channel.
In such a case, the other boat was technically incorrect to turn to port, but no harm was done. Maybe he had a good reason to want to be on that side of the channel.
lw395
Well-Known Member
I would have thought that anyone who sailed in Portsmouth Harbour would be fairly familiar with tripper boats going South down the East side of the harbour.
Risk of collision will only happen if you don't consider that they very often do that.
They tend to operate at the edge of the exclusion zone, so trying to pass them port-to-port can lead you into trouble.
Much better to understand what they are doing and cross their bows a good way off.
bbg
Well-Known Member
If the other craft turned to port before ColRegs came into play, he did nothing wrong.
It depends how early he made the turn. If it was two small craft and more than a minute before they passed each other, and the turn was obvious, I don't see anything wrong with it. If it was 10 seconds before, that would be different.
ProDave
Well-Known Member
The important thing to remember here is both boats were keeping watch, both boats saw each other, both made a course change so there was no collision and no "situation". We passed, waved at each other and both had a pleasant day on the water.
The fact that the course change was open to debate is a relatively minor academic point.
The course change was made about 3 minutes before we passed each other.
The fact that the course change was open to debate is a relatively minor academic point.
The course change was made about 3 minutes before we passed each other.
johnalison
Well-Known Member
If you were motoring at 5kn and he at 7, this means that you were 3/5 miles apart at the outset. Assuming that you were not restricted in any way, this doesn't seem to be an unreasonable manoeuvre on his part.
Stemar
Well-Known Member
Since I go up and down the west side, those tripper boats are of little interest until they decide to cross over to use the small boat channel. That channel can be fun when you've got a load of raggies and stinkies of all sizes and speeds trying to get in and out and overtake port and starboard, the Harbour Patrol are tearing their hair out, then the Normandie decides it wants to play as well...
ProDave
Well-Known Member
So the conclusion is we were far enough apart not to be governed by Colregs rules so either of us could have made any manoeuvre. Then having made that manoeuvre, we were no longer on a collision course so again outwith Colregs rules.
johnalison
Well-Known Member
I'm not authority on the regs, but as I understand it, there is no distance beyond which the regs don't apply. However, if you can safely make a manoeuvre that does not increase the risk of collision, then you are free to do so. There is nothing to stop me motoring across ahead of a ship that appears on my starboard side, so long as there is sufficient distance for me to do so safely.
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
100%
It's a common practice, tweaking the heading to port. Just to open the CPA up a bit. For a near head on situation. Which does not make it a good practice, or justifiable when it goes pear shaped. The hazard one vessel tweaks to port. The other vessel see's a vessel near right ahead slightly to starboard with a close CPA. If this vessel alters according to the rules the situation gets worse.
The purpose of the rules, is to help, those in charge of any vessel to predict the actions of another vessel.
By choosing to depart form the rules to take a more convenient action, you become less predictable and the hazard increases.
Additional hazard , By using this practice, your now trapped unable to alter to Starboard if becoming give way to give way to another vessel before past and clear of the vessel you are going green to green with.
This practice is generally regarded as poor, rather than the practice of good seamen.
Which does not mean, I have not opted for Green to Green when an occasion arose where I thought it was best. Its not my preferred option. I don't particularly like being forced into it. In a narrow channel with a confirmed passing arrangement. It may be routine, even so both vessels have lost any defence by departing from the rules and will be criticised for their action if it goes wrong.
To avoid being forced into this uncomfortable situation. While in a narrow channel my preferred option, Is to make it obvious I am on the starboard side of the channel. By being as near as is safe and practical to the Starboard side. If I do this I find head on situations particularly those which are nearly head on but slightly to starboard. Are much less likely.
If and when it does, take action early by showing a "red' or "red aspect" at least this way my actions should hopefully be predictable.
There was a good article written by an American about the use of this practice by commercial vessels on the Great lakes and St Laurence Seaway a couple of years ago. I will have to try a search for.
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RichardS
N/A
See post #9 for a similar assessment.
When the day comes when all vessels over 10m, or whatever have to fit AIS, these things will become a lot easier.
Richard
Skylark
Well-Known Member
The OP said it that there was plenty of room with no navigational constraints. The thread now seems to have morphed this into a narrow channel
Even within Costa Del Solent, it’s not uncommon to hear the big boys on VHF agreeing to pass starboard to starboard.
Even within Costa Del Solent, it’s not uncommon to hear the big boys on VHF agreeing to pass starboard to starboard.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Not strictly accurate but sort of true in practice.
The rules apply to vessels in sight of each other. (There are special rules for fog)
However, most people in small boats apply some common sense. When we’re in the Solent or crowed waters Mrs M is forever calling my attention to a boat that might be on a collision course with us that’s a mile or two away. My usual response is to suggest we wait a minute to see what develops. Invariably the boat tacks when it’s still a mile away or alters for some other boat nearer or if it’s a power boat it alters course several times for no obvious reason at all.
Occasionally they hold their course and I apply the rules and we exchange a cheery wave as we alter and pass their stern if we’re the give way vessel or I shrug my shoulders. as I’ve been forced to alter course to starboard (or slow down dramatically to avoid collision despite being the stand on vessel. Life’s too short to get worked up about these things in the latter case.
Ohlin Karcher
N/A
See post #9 for a similar assessment.
When the day comes when all vessels over 10m, or whatever have to fit AIS, these things will become a lot easier.
Richard
If you want a picture of that corpse-strewn dystopian nightmare, look at the crashes and chaos caused by motorists using satnavs instead of reading road maps and looking out of the window... and apply it to high speed powerboats..
RichardS
N/A
If you want a picture of that corpse-strewn dystopian nightmare, look at the crashes and chaos caused by motorists using satnavs instead of reading road maps and looking out of the window... and apply it to high speed powerboats..
Ah yes .... but I sail a cat so, relatively speaking, nothing is that "high speed".
Richard
fisherman
Well-Known Member
I was taught that if there is a clear pass stbd/stbd maintain your course, otherwise alter to stbd. Very easy to get caught in the deadly dance where he alters wrongly, you correctly, he changes his mind, you have already responded....One option is to make a 180deg to stbd, showing him your port aspect, then placing him as the overtaking vessel and reducing closing speed, then consider your options after he settles his course.
Ohlin Karcher
N/A
Fisherman, with regard to the second part of your post..an ingenious idea, a 180 to put someone else into the overtaking situation., thus laying some new and unexpected obligations onto the other vessel
. Obligations which might prove awkward for him to comply with.
You can't turn an overtaking situation into a crossing situation...what other situations can't you change into something else, if any?
I will have to flick through the Rules to see if it's mentioned, I'm not for a moment doubting you, I just don't remember it as an option..but on reflection I can't see why not ( obviously depending on other considerations). Food for thought.
(On reflection, it's easy to visualise situations where it would be insane and unlawful..eg if I was in a head-on situation with a ship, and I suddenly did a U-turn.. but it could also be a useful option elsewhere).
. Obligations which might prove awkward for him to comply with.
You can't turn an overtaking situation into a crossing situation...what other situations can't you change into something else, if any?
I will have to flick through the Rules to see if it's mentioned, I'm not for a moment doubting you, I just don't remember it as an option..but on reflection I can't see why not ( obviously depending on other considerations). Food for thought.
(On reflection, it's easy to visualise situations where it would be insane and unlawful..eg if I was in a head-on situation with a ship, and I suddenly did a U-turn.. but it could also be a useful option elsewhere).
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fisherman
Well-Known Member
Not awkward, or no more awkward. he was going to pass you in the opposite direction, now, assuming he has the speed, he will pass you in the same direction, depending on whether you change your speed. You would only do it if he has displayed poor intentions. I saw a big ship do it, but to be fair the opposite vessel turned to port away from another overtaking him, and gave the 180 deg vessel no choice he could not turn to port, he would have hit the overtaking vessel.
If you turn 180 and he overtakes you to port you can turn to stbd giving him your green and no obligations. If to stbd then you turn port, he has red light but is passing your stern safely.
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RichardS
N/A
I didn't read it that Fisherman is saying that the vessel has now become the "overtaking vessel" as defined by ColRegs because, as you say, it's not permitted to change status in that way after a collision situation has been recognised. I assumed he meant that by making the collision course vessel the overtaking vessel, as used in common parlance, it gives more time for all options to be assessed. I have performed a similar manoeuvre in certain circumstances for the same reason.
Richard
Ohlin Karcher
N/A
Ok thanks to both, I will have to mull it over a bit.
