Annoying marina design mistakes

[AngusMcDoon]

Exactly. It were the French, Spanish and Greeks who ignored the red diesel directive and subesequently blamed the Dutch and the Belgians.
Or did I miss something?

Yes. Firstly, the UK got an agreement for extended derogation of duty on fuel used for transport from the EU. It did not ignore any rule. The UK made its case, and the Commission agreed. Secondly, the EU rule is that duty must be paid on fuel used for private transport, not that it must or must not be a particular colour. We now pay duty on fuel for boats, although some of our EU partners seem to misunderstand this situation.

Anyway, duty on boat fuel is trivial compared to the continuing chaos in the € area by member countries disregarding the fiscal rules. That drags down a whole continent economically and the continuation of the failed experiment is leading to misery for millions. That's not trivial.

 

[Daydream believer]

I think finger pontoons should have a vertical post 3'-4' high at the end over which you could drop a loop attached to a midships cleat on the boat. Keeping the motor slow ahead the boat is pinned to enable you at attach the other warps.

Brilliant idea
We could run for the gell filler as we watch old gaffers swinging the bowsprit as they turn in and getting it the wrong side of the post.
terrific sport ( for those that are safely tied up of course)

 

[Daydream believer]

Yes. You did miss something. Firstly, the UK got an agreement for extended derogation of duty on fuel used for transport from the EU. It did not ignore any rule. The UK made its case, and everyone agreed. Secondly, the EU rule is that duty must be paid on fuel used for transport, not that it must or must not be a particular colour. We now pay duty on fuel for boats, although some of our EU partners seem to misunderstand this situation and make up their own rules.

Anyway, duty on boat fuel is really rather trivial compared to the hopeless continuing chaos in the € area by member countries blatantly disregarding the fiscal rules. That drags down a whole continent economically and the continuation of the ridiculous failed experiment is leading to misery for millions. That's not trivial.

Very interesting comment ( the red fuel bit not the drag on the economy) but i cannot help picking up the thread drift
That puts a different slant on the issue. may i ask did you just get that by word of mouth, or is it recorded somewhere, so it can be accurately requoted sometime

And as a further thread drift--would one say that "transport" includes boats or just Rail, road & air. Not that it would change the details of your comment above of course

 

[lpdsn]

Port Ellen, where the hammer head berths are not optimal. There are asymmetric fingers available that have a straight edge along one side which when used on a hammer head makes one double length berth for a big boat. Using the symmeric type with an angle or curve at the root leads to a bulge in the middle of the hammer head, so they have no berths suitable for large boats (new pontoons this year may have changed that).

Is that arrangement similar to Glenarm?

 

[Kurrawong_Kid]

Can you imagine the EU getting their hands on that request
Every pontoon in Europe ( except French Spanish & Greeks who would ignore it anyway) would have massive bollards to take 50 tonne barges, Ropes would have to be minimum 3 inch dynema
All corners would have to be welded steel frames with no protection. Every boat would have to have 30 different ropes & 10 cleats along each gunwhale, Fenders would have to be maximum 1 per boat 2 inch diameter ( to suit the French)
5 marina staff on hand for all berthing.
Qualified persons only allowed to dock boats
Fines for UK marinas would run into millions

They would go on for ever

And our civil service would "gold plate" it with excessive building regulations, electrical installation specifications, health and safety notices, water purification requirements for each outlet, expensive anti slip applications etc.etc. All beaurocracies are the same. They justify their own existence! Soon we'll need a certificate to visit the heads and showers

 

[AngusMcDoon]

And as a further thread drift--would one say that "transport" includes boats or just Rail, road & air. Not that it would change the details of your comment above of course

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/hcotegmanual/hcoteg23250.htm

Private transport, so boats and planes. Not many people have their own private train. Duty was already charged for road.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Yes. Firstly, the UK got an agreement for extended derogation of duty on fuel used for transport from the EU. It did not ignore any rule. The UK made its case, and the Commission agreed. Secondly, the EU rule is that duty must be paid on fuel used for private transport, not that it must or must not be a particular colour.

I thought there were two rules involved. First, that pleasure vessels used duty-paid fuel. Secondly, that only duty-free fuel could be dyed in any way. The Belgians, I gather, get upset because of the colour of the fuel and don;t care about the duty issue. Have I grasped the wrong end of a stick?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

I thought there were two rules involved. First, that pleasure vessels used duty-paid fuel. Secondly, that only duty-free fuel could be dyed in any way. The Belgians, I gather, get upset because of the colour of the fuel and don;t care about the duty issue. Have I grasped the wrong end of a stick?

As usual with EU stuff, it's a muddle. The original directives stated that fuel used for private transport must have duty paid (92/12/EEC), and fuel that has not had duty paid must be marked (95/60/EC). But these were only directives, which means it's up to the member countries how to implement them in their laws. The UK's way is you can use marked fuel as long as you have paid the duty and have the evidence to show that you have. The directives do not say that fuel which has had duty paid cannot be marked. However, the Belgians and other countries have implemented the directive in their laws a different way, such that marked fuel always means duty has not been paid. Now the EU are agreeing with the Belgian way and marked fuel must never be used for private transport. The RYA, amongst others, think that the UK's implementation does meet the directives. However, the EU have threatened to take the UK government to some kangaroo EU court which will of course find against the UK. That was a while ago and nothing seems to be happening. In the mean time, it's the UK boater who is piggy in the middle of this muddle. The same problem affects Irish boats as well.

 

[Jonas]

So much negativity flying around these marinas, some people are never happy.
Its stressful coming into a new place, trying to judge the wind/tide, trying to find a berth, which side are we to, avoid bumping into the most expensive looking yacht which is always in the wrong place. All this when you are tired from sailing, often getting in after dark and just wanting to be tied up safe so you can get some sleep.
Everywhere is different. I can’t claim to be any kind of expert, more often to be found at anchor but at times needs must. It used to be the most stressful experience for us going in somewhere but now we try and relax into it. After all, how hard can it be if plenty of boats go in all the time? OK our boat is modest and can reverse fairly successfully, there have certainly been cock-ups and gel coat repair at times, but I’ve yet to see what I would call a major accident in a marina. The biggest dent is always to the skipper’s ego.
WCs and showers are a bonus. It may not be salubrious but at least you can sit and read the paper without listening for noises from above and worrying that the pump won’t operate. I remember an erotic episode that only happened because the showers had a slot and we only had one coin.
You’re supposed to be having fun, stop whinging and enjoy it!

 

[Daydream believer]

WCs and showers are a bonus. !

None of it is a "bonus" we pay for it & as with the berth as well as the shower facilities I think we are entitled to comment on their quality & design

 

[Jonas]

Then you are trapped in a cycle of disappointment from which there is no escape, you can't even buy your way out.
The only solution is homogeneity, which no doubt you would complain about.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

So much negativity flying around these marinas, some people are never happy.

If somewhere like Port Ellen want to design the layout of their pontoons such that they cannot berth any boat over 45', that does not make me unhappy as I don't have a boat that size. However, I look at the design and think 'that could have been done better'. I'm an engineer. I can't help it.

 

[Daydream believer]

So much negativity flying around these marinas, some people are never happy.
Its stressful coming into a new place, trying to judge the wind/tide, trying to find a berth, which side are we to, avoid bumping into the most expensive looking yacht which is always in the wrong place.

Firstly
If we did not make objective comments about design we would still be in the dark ages
Second
No it is not stressful coming into a marina if one has confidence & the ability to handle the craft properly.
Saying it is stressful is negative. What you are really saying is that you cannot handle your boat confidently
However, good design always makes the operation easier & that is the point of making subjective comments about the way marinas are laid out

 

[Jonas]

You got me, I have no idea what I'm doing and can't handle my boat.
Big difference between objective comments and your kind of whingeing though!

 

[NOHOH]

Cleats. Any pontoon or finger which needs the end of a rope passing through a loop to make fast instead of having a 'proper' cleat that can be looped, lassooed or have bowline dropped on it.

.

Go into any Canal Chandler....and ask for a "Pile Hook"...... http://livingonanarrowboat.co.uk/wp...mage-uploads/livingon/2013/02/Piling-Hook.jpg .....also useful for attaching to rings in harbour walls (Remember when we were not all expected to be `marina drones`?)......er...and getting pulled by cars on your roller skates

 

[Daydream believer]

You got me, I have no idea what I'm doing and can't handle my boat.
Big difference between objective comments and your kind of whingeing though!

So it is whingeing to mention shower design, pontoon construction, electric box positioning & cleats.
All of which could have been considered at the design stage, or in the second design stage, once user make their thoughts known
On top of that is it whinging to ask marina owners to consider novice sailors, like you ,who readily admit to not having a clue, but in all fairness should be considered within the grand scheme of things

 

[Jonas]

Yes.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Go into any Canal Chandler....and ask for a "Pile Hook"......

Sounds more like something you'd get at a pharmacy.

 

[JumbleDuck]

As usual with EU stuff, it's a muddle. The original directives stated that fuel used for private transport must have duty paid (92/12/EEC), and fuel that has not had duty paid must be marked (95/60/EC). But these were only directives, which means it's up to the member countries how to implement them in their laws. The UK's way is you can use marked fuel as long as you have paid the duty and have the evidence to show that you have. The directives do not say that fuel which has had duty paid cannot be marked. However, the Belgians and other countries have implemented the directive in their laws a different way, such that marked fuel always means duty has not been paid. Now the EU are agreeing with the Belgian way and marked fuel must never be used for private transport. The RYA, amongst others, think that the UK's implementation does meet the directives. However, the EU have threatened to take the UK government to some kangaroo EU court which will of course find against the UK. That was a while ago and nothing seems to be happening. In the mean time, it's the UK boater who is piggy in the middle of this muddle. The same problem affects Irish boats as well.

Thank you. Much obliged.

 

[Triassic]

....I remember an erotic episode that only happened because the showers had a slot and we only had one coin.
You’re supposed to be having fun, stop whinging and enjoy it!

Those showers that have the button that pops out and turns the water off after five seconds are equally attractive......

My only suggestion around marina design is that it would be nice if they considered new visitors unfamiliar with the layout when doing the numbering. Having pontoon "A" as the first one you come to and berth "1" nearest the entrance would make things a whole lot easier when it comes to trying to find your allocated berth. I've given up trying now and just moor in the first space I can get into and then walk around to find where they want me before trying to manoeuvre a 19' wide trimaran around the maze.