And now the RYA wash their hands of it ...

[Elemental]

I watched the RYA interview. I'm not sure quite what I expected Gus to say, but I was disappointed with the apparent justification/approval he gave for the current position. He sounded like a supporter of the status quo and I was left with the impression that they consider the current position w.r.t. mainland Europe as acceptable.

So, after an exchange of emails with Gus, I am now convinced that the RYA have little or no intention to argue or lobby for any changes to the supply of fuel and that they consider the supply of red as an immutable requirement.

As some of the exchanges were quite lengthy, I've set out one of his responses below, together with a summary of the point to which he was responding.

I asked about the fact that it'll take me approximately 1.5 years to adequately dilute my red to a legally acceptable limit.

Essentially it stems from my having a burn rate of 100L per season, not dropping to below 20L for safety reasons, and then having to refill, burn and fill again. All up that process would take me around 1.5 years. If I sail to, say, the Channel Isles on my summer cruise and then back to Dover and need fuel there, I would be forced to make multiple trips on foot to a petrol station (assuming one is nearby), or fill with red. One fill with red and I'm busted for another 1.5 years... How does that equate to a ready supply of suitable fuel for me?

and Gus' reply (copied entirely) I take to mean that he agrees that Belgium is off limits to UK sailors who are not prepared to flout Belgian law

I agree that, in your particular circumstances, if you are unwilling to take the risk of being fined in Belgium then for all practical purposes you would need to avoid visiting Belgian waters.

"My particular circumstances" being the same as most sailing boats who may sail to Belgium. I think this is an unacceptable position for the RYA to take.

I also asked about many other issues. E.g.

• How do I get proper, reliable supplies of white?
• I asked what the RYA's view on filling from cans was (because of the associated spillage risk and the fact I have to put to sea to fill)

None of which he answered despite being asked each twice.

Putting aside my preferred solution of banning red and requiring leisure users to use white, I feel that the RYA should be campaigning for some kind of improved situation (whatever it is) rather than seeming to agree with the unsustainable bodge we have at the moment.

 

[Burnham Bob]

i thought he said that you could contact the marina in belgium and get clearance in advance. ostend at anchor has got blanket clearance for UK boats to arrive with red diesel in their tanks. i'm trying to find out if i can get it by calling the marina or mailing them in advance of crossing to ostend.

 

[sailorman]

email Robert
http://www.rnsyc.be/ostend/en/clubinfo/theteam.asp

 

[wklein]

I am prepared to pay the extra duty on fuel (i don't want to) but am worried about our local fuel barge. If they have to start charging road prices (or in fact appreciably higher due to the added inconvenience and reduced throughput) Sailors will simply fill up with jerry cans from petrol stations (we are a bit of a cheap lot down here). And the fuel barge will still need to hold red diesel for fishing boats and other commercial craft. Which will be very difficult and expensive to set up. Powerboats may be exception but if you could save a couple of hundred quid by filling from petrol station up the road wouldn't you? Can't see them adding white diesel tank and getting sufficient business to keep it recoup investment. If i were them id give it up.

 

[rotrax]

I watched the RYA interview. I'm not sure quite what I expected Gus to say, but I was disappointed with the apparent justification/approval he gave for the current position. He sounded like a supporter of the status quo and I was left with the impression that they consider the current position w.r.t. mainland Europe as acceptable.

So, after an exchange of emails with Gus, I am now convinced that the RYA have little or no intention to argue or lobby for any changes to the supply of fuel and that they consider the supply of red as an immutable requirement.

As some of the exchanges were quite lengthy, I've set out one of his responses below, together with a summary of the point to which he was responding.

I asked about the fact that it'll take me approximately 1.5 years to adequately dilute my red to a legally acceptable limit.



and Gus' reply (copied entirely) I take to mean that he agrees that Belgium is off limits to UK sailors who are not prepared to flout Belgian law


"My particular circumstances" being the same as most sailing boats who may sail to Belgium. I think this is an unacceptable position for the RYA to take.

I also asked about many other issues. E.g.

• How do I get proper, reliable supplies of white?
• I asked what the RYA's view on filling from cans was (because of the associated spillage risk and the fact I have to put to sea to fill)

None of which he answered despite being asked each twice.

Putting aside my preferred solution of banning red and requiring leisure users to use white, I feel that the RYA should be campaigning for some kind of improved situation (whatever it is) rather than seeming to agree with the unsustainable bodge we have at the moment.

It is unlikely that a motor boat owner who uses 100 litres plus each trip would have the same view as you. It obviously has not worked out as you would like, and not as I would like. The RYA must be overstaying their welcome now- just a couple of years ago we were all encouraging them to make sure we kept red. Not a good position for them. I think you are worrying too much about your red diluting to pink. If you have proof of purchase for a reasonable quantity of white the Belgians will be aware of the dilema and are unlikely to be harsh. They have, as I understand it given permission for a rally of boats using red to proceed. Very few fines have been levied and a couple of these were not British flagged anyway. The ideal result of white FAME free diesel at the 40/60 split is not going to happen so we must make the best of what we have. As sailors that should be second nature...........

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Putting aside my preferred solution of banning red and requiring leisure users to use white, I feel that the RYA should be campaigning for some kind of improved situation (whatever it is) rather than seeming to agree with the unsustainable bodge we have at the moment.

Thats your preferred solution for your particular interests. But what about the rest of the boating world - the big powerboats, the guys on the south coast and west coast who never go near belgium? What about the small commercial craft in marinas? What about the liveaboards?

What you are asking is that all these people have an unnecessary increase in costs simply so you can go to Belgium. Bit selfish?

 

[Tranona]

What do you propose the RYA do about it? The government is determined to stick to the current arrangements and is still pursuing its case with the EU.

Nothing the RYA can do about that, nor about Belgium other than what they are doing, which is trying to persuade the Belgian authorities to be more lenient.

If the EU case goes against the government then they will have to comply. If they win, nothing changes except they are in a better position to persuade Belgium not to take any action against UK visitors.

 

[Koeketiene]

email Robert
http://www.rnsyc.be/ostend/en/clubinfo/theteam.asp

He's going to love you for this.

 

[Elemental]

Thats your preferred solution for your particular interests. But what about the rest of the boating world - the big powerboats, the guys on the south coast and west coast who never go near belgium? What about the small commercial craft in marinas? What about the liveaboards?

Powerboats should only be claiming reduced tax fuel for their heating and charging usage. The incremental charge to them should be negligible

What you are asking is that all these people have an unnecessary increase in costs simply so you can go to Belgium. Bit selfish?

As I said in my post. That is my preferred solution. However, I also said

Putting aside my preferred solution of banning red and requiring leisure users to use white, I feel that the RYA should be campaigning for some kind of improved situation (whatever it is) rather than seeming to agree with the unsustainable bodge we have at the moment.

I just want to see the RYA campaign for a better solution than the bodge we have at the moment. Any sustainable solution is better than this whole thing blowing up again. Even if I don't personally like the result. Not too selfish I feel?

 

[Elemental]

What do you propose the RYA do about it? The government is determined to stick to the current arrangements and is still pursuing its case with the EU.

I want the RYA to campaign hard for proper sustainable fuel provision not just give up. A solution that would work for everybody that won't erupt again in a few years time. We had a chance to get it sorted before and didn't. I don't think the current system will be stable for, say 25+, years. Do You?

 

[sailorman]

He's going to love you for this.

he might get some overtime from it

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

i thought he said that you could contact the marina in belgium and get clearance in advance. ostend at anchor has got blanket clearance for UK boats to arrive with red diesel in their tanks. i'm trying to find out if i can get it by calling the marina or mailing them in advance of crossing to ostend.

Me too.

Plus we're told only 4 boats have been prosecuted and all of them had commited other offences.

 

[maby]

...

If the EU case goes against the government then they will have to comply. If they win, nothing changes except they are in a better position to persuade Belgium not to take any action against UK visitors.

How on earth do you work that out? The Belgians are currently fining us for breaking their law regarding the use of red diesel and the new HMRC policy is to ask us to sign a declaration acknowledging that we are breaking their law!

 

[maby]

I want the RYA to campaign hard for proper sustainable fuel provision not just give up. A solution that would work for everybody that won't erupt again in a few years time. We had a chance to get it sorted before and didn't. I don't think the current system will be stable for, say 25+, years. Do You?

Sooner or later the White Van Man is going to work out that the owners of gas guzzling mobos are getting fuel at an enormous discount to burn at 1mpg while they are being taxed out of existence! At that point, I would assume that HMRC will cancel 60/40 within a week or two - it will be so embarrasing once the press gets hold of it...

 

[Elemental]

Sooner or later the White Van Man is going to work out that the owners of gas guzzling mobos are getting fuel at an enormous discount to burn at 1mpg while they are being taxed out of existence! At that point, I would assume that HMRC will cancel 60/40 within a week or two - it will be so embarrasing once the press gets hold of it...

Ah, But according to the RYA there is no red fuel discount. When I asked Gus how mobo's can say their cruising is going to increase in cost by £500...

I’m afraid I don’t agree, however, that the 60/40 split is a “tax dodge” – we make it clear in our advice that if boaters know that they use more than 60% of their fuel for propulsion then they are expected to make a declaration to that effect and pay the additional duty.

 

[oldvarnish]

I am prepared to pay the extra duty on fuel (i don't want to) but am worried about our local fuel barge. If they have to start charging road prices (or in fact appreciably higher due to the added inconvenience and reduced throughput) Sailors will simply fill up with jerry cans from petrol stations (we are a bit of a cheap lot down here). And the fuel barge will still need to hold red diesel for fishing boats and other commercial craft. Which will be very difficult and expensive to set up. Powerboats may be exception but if you could save a couple of hundred quid by filling from petrol station up the road wouldn't you? Can't see them adding white diesel tank and getting sufficient business to keep it recoup investment. If i were them id give it up.

But it's simple, isn't it? Allow only white diesel to be sold. We yotties mourn the passing of a terrific perk but accept that times have changed. The fishermen fill up at the full price then claim a rebate via their VAT returns or some other method as yet to be invented. Then your fuel barge is safe and will do as much business as before, possibly at a better margin.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The Belgians are currently fining us for breaking their law regarding the use of red diesel

They're not though, are they?

We're told they've fine 4 people all of whom had already been caught pulling other scams.

Anyone who calls them can get an upfront agreement that they won't be prosecuted.

I simply don't see the need for all this hysteria.

 

[Elemental]

They're not though, are they?

We're told they've fine 4 people all of whom had already been caught pulling other scams.

Sorry, I missed that. What had they been up to?

Anyone who calls them can get an upfront agreement that they won't be prosecuted.

Anyone?? - if you're right then I agree with you that the urgency is somewhat reduced...

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Sorry, I missed that. What had they been up to?

According to Guapa's post (sorry I can't go to it after P45-gate ) four people have been fined and all were already being done for something else.

Anyone?? - if you're right then I agree with you that the urgency is somewhat reduced...

I think I got a bit carried away with 'anyone', sorry, I have no way of knowing that. But certainly the RYA hadn't heard of anyone who'd been refused.

 

[maby]

But it's simple, isn't it? Allow only white diesel to be sold. We yotties mourn the passing of a terrific perk but accept that times have changed. The fishermen fill up at the full price then claim a rebate via their VAT returns or some other method as yet to be invented. Then your fuel barge is safe and will do as much business as before, possibly at a better margin.

Hmmm, the trouble with this rebating idea for commercial users is that it requires HMRC to create a whole new set of processes - not something that they are going to be happy to do in the current economic climate when all expenditure on new systems is being frowned upon.