Anchors, is one big one better than 2 small ones

[Neeves]

There has been a recent debate over the value of carrying one big anchor to use in preference to two smaller anchors when conditions get tough. Tough is when you start to get twitchy and the wind noise becomes 'scary'! Its not about hurricanes, cyclones, typhoons - to me they are a separate issue (you go hide in mangroves).

The original debate, and the introduction is quite succinct, started here:

99104.htmlhttp://www.morganscloud.com/2012/12/14/one-anchor-or-two/

and was then widened to another audience here, but it is a bit, very, long winded:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f118/anchors-bigger-is-better-

To make posting more efficient the thread uses BIB for 'Bigger is Better'. We did not come up with anything for 2 smaller is fine, 2SIF?

The question is not about anchor types or designs but the philosophy is limited to 'better' anchors listed as:

Supreme, Spade (alloy and galvanised), Rocna, Boss, Mantus, Excel, SARCA, Kobra, Fortress, Ultra. If anyone wants to extend the list that's good. If people carry bigger old designs I'm not so surprised so they do not quite fit the discussion and really confuse if the design is not stated. I'm not keen on some of the anchors listed, but that is another issue (not to be broached!).

The thesis is that most people carry anchors that are too small, they might be of the size recommended by the anchor makers but for anyone anchoring where stronger winds are expected then one should increase anchor size. This is not about going one size up, but 2 sizes. For say a Rocna this means not an anchor of 25kg but one of 40kg (Spade actually have a greater range of sizes but the Rocna sizing seems to cover the basic idea). Price is not a relevant argument against BIB, over the time you probably own the yacht the difference in price between a 25kg and 40kg anchor is not relevant and its not about weight on the bow either - your 100kg of chain dwarfs any difference in anchor weight. The alternative to the 40kg Rocna, in the example, is 2 x 25kg anchors, you might have 2 Rocnas, or a Rocna and Spade (or Spade and Fortress). One anchor you carry on the bow roller the second anchor you carry, wherever, but you are able to deploy it easily and quickly should the need arise. Chain is not included in the debate - it is assumed the chain is of a size for your yacht, and you have enough. If you have a big yacht and 2 bow rollers (you are lucky). If you go BIB, what if any backups do you carry?

I am in favour of 2 small anchors, but my practice has been roundly condemned (as stupid). The majority of people to have been involved in either debate all support 2 sizes bigger.

I'm not trying to justify my minority position but would like views from Scuttlbutt member and would like as part of any post, what anchors people carry, primary and spares (weight and design) and the size of their yacht. I have noticed on the CF that people profess to support BIB but actually carry 'normal' anchors. If you have 2 bow rollers and 2 windlass - it would be useful to declare as such - as this might influence your choice.

We have a 35' cat (its 35' with 3' transom extensions 3 inches above the waterline). We weigh in at about 6t in cruising mode. We carry 50m of 8mm chain and a 16kg Excel on the bow roller. On a really extended cruise we would also carry an alloy Spade 8kg, same size as the 16kg gal version, a Fortress FX 23 and an alloy Excel (again same size as the gal 16kg model). We have one extra dedicated rode, 30m x 8mm chain with 40m nylon. We use 13m nylon snubbers. We carry enough mooring line to make up at least one more 50m rode (and in desperation would strip off sheets). We have an electric windlass, but can lift the chain + anchor by hand (we could obviously use a winch to do the same).

Unlike other anchor threads the idea here is that this is meant to be civilised, educational and informative. I, for one, do not mind repetition - its saves reading back through many posts. Equally I do not mind answering the same questions twice (if someone has not read back through all the posts).

Jonathan

 

[onesea]

Of course BIB, if I was going to anchor in serious weather I would like to be able to lay one of these, preferably two...

Anything less is a compromise...

The fact is there has to be a compromise, I use a fortress as my main anchor and have hidden in a locker below a larger (well heavier anyway) CQR that came with the boat. No windlass it makes anchoring practical for us, I guess I am in the one small one big camp then?

 

[Neeves]

I like a bit of humour, beats rancour into a cocked hat

Fortress do not really fit into any easy categorisation, being light, big and ever so useful.

But I note the link I posted for Morgan's Cloud looks a bit iffy, apologies, hopefully this will be better?

http://www.morganscloud.com/2012/12/14/one-anchor-or-two/

Jonathan

 

[FWB]

 

[[70521]]

There has been a recent debate over the value of carrying one big anchor to use in preference to two smaller anchors when conditions get tough. Tough is when you start to get twitchy and the wind noise becomes 'scary'! Its not about hurricanes, cyclones, typhoons - to me they are a separate issue (you go hide in mangroves).

That assumes you have a mangrove to hide in and from my school Geography I can't recall much of the planets coast line having them.

I think that most skippers will consider the conditions that they normally sail in and have the gear on-board to cope with that. I like to have two anchors on-board. A main plough and fisherman's, to date they have worked well. For a hurricane I'd prefer to be well out to sea with a sea anchor!

 

[grumpy_o_g]

On the KISS principle one big one has to be better. On the other hand two anchors allows you two different types to cope with different sea-beds. And a kedge is a wonderful thing to have for all sorts of reasons but especially if you lose your main anchor. I can't believe there are many boats that actually have to make this choice. I'd go for as big as possible for the main anchor (Delta for preference in my case I'm sure others are fine) and find space in a cockpit for a Fortress with a short chain and long rope rode as a Kedge unless we're talking seriously big boats or a seriously constrained budget.

 

[Neeves]

Dylan,

Too simplistic, but good you got up early enough to dig the article out and post, consider: is the 2 sizes bigger needed, might two 'adequately' sized anchor give greater flexibility for different bottoms, might 2 anchors stop a yacht veering (and if they are of the 'right' size (so hold, that is of course questionable) is not stopping veering an advantage . What do you do if your 2 sizes bigger anchor cannot be retrieved. The bigger one means you should be able to set and forget, certainly better than waking up at 2am - but how many people actually carry anchors 2 sizes bigger - its all very well believing in BIB, how many practice what they preach. How many with correctly sized new gen anchors have upsized?

And hurricanes, I was thinking of tropical storms, they tend to be 'tropical,' where the mangroves grow. For hurricanes that are not tropical storms and on the assumption you are on a lea shore (but with an anchorage or two within reach) - what to do.

 

[Davegriff]

I don't think the article referred to by Dylan states that an anchor 2 sizes bigger is required does it?

 

[Conachair]

There has been a recent debate over the value of carrying one big anchor to use in preference to two smaller anchors when conditions get tough. Tough is when you start to get twitchy and the wind noise becomes 'scary'! Its not about hurricanes, cyclones, typhoons - to me they are a separate issue (you go hide in mangroves).

The original debate, and the introduction is quite succinct, started here:

99104.htmlhttp://www.morganscloud.com/2012/12/14/one-anchor-or-two/

To be clear with the Morgans Cloud link, which also was the main thrust from the CF link..

OK here it comes: If your boat is properly set up and equipped you should almost never need to set more than one anchor. Here is why:

The thesis is that most people carry anchors that are too small,

No, the point both in the Morgans Cloud link and from the CF thread is that from experience and observation many very experienced long distance cruisers have found that one large anchor works better than 2 or more smaller anchor most of the time. Very different angle. Which also ties in with the likes of Steve Dashew, Bernard Moitessier et al.

 

[BrianH]

The two times only that I've used two anchors they were of different types in a Vee formation with the wind in excess of 50 knots. In both cases the yacht was constantly sheering back and forth between both, putting most of the tension on only one anchor at a time. Only when passing through the arc from one to the other did both fully share the strain.

Using two anchors would now imply to me the bower and another set in tandem where the chain catenery would keep it on the bottom. But in any two anchor situation the retrieval can be problematic - especially if having to be done when the wind is still strong and the direction changes making the anchorage no longer tenable. It happened to me on one of the occasions.

 

[macd]

For a hurricane I'd prefer to be well out to sea with a sea anchor!

I don't think you would. Best bet is a serious hurricane hole (and most have their shortcomings) or somewhere you can get ashore and leave the boat to it.

 

[oldbilbo]

I'll follow this with interest, for I am shortly to purchase a new 'best bower' anchor which will certainly be larger/heavier than the manufacturers recommend for my size of boat - a 28', 3 tonne, long keeler. There already exists in the store cupboard a 25lb CQR and a 65lb 'Belfast' folding-fisherman by designer Ian Nicolson, which may well be shipped if heading for kelpy waters, but I'm looking for a Kobra II or a Delta of around 14-16kg.

I've followed the arguments of Alain Fraysse ( http://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/rode/rode.htm ) regarding optimisation of the rode, and now have 10mm chain and 18mm braided nylon on board awaiting the new anchor, and I reckon I should be as well prepared for a hard blow as is practicable. However, pondering the circumstances in which I might find myself needing to prep ahead of a forecast hoolie in, say, St Helen's Pool in the Isles of Scilly or Baltimore Harbour, I'm wondering about the benefit to be had from tucking well into a tight cove and taking long lines ashore to immovable rocks, in the Nordic or Chilean channels way using rock pitons or a loop of chain.

That's the idea, I believe, around 'tucking right into the mangroves' and I know of several potentially-suitable 'hurricane holes' up in the Scottish Islands. Surely this technique has 'a place in the toolbag'...?

 

[Neeves]

I don't think the article referred to by Dylan states that an anchor 2 sizes bigger is required does it?

That is part of the overall question, does one need an anchor 2 sizes bigger?

 

[Neeves]

Good to see that you are on board, you can check that the thread, if it develops, is on track and both in good humour and focussed.

My question is: is one anchor larger than anchor makers recommend necessary and might 2 anchors (potentially of different designs) of the size anchor makers recommend meet the same need.

I am not suggesting that previous historic recommendations are wrong (many were made before some of our current anchors were even dreams). To put it another way: I am simply asking - do Scuttlebutt members find their new gen anchors, to sizes recommended by anchor makers, inadequate - and if so why - and if inadequate - what do they do?

If forum members, in the majority (along with those on CF and Morgan's Cloud) think they should have larger anchors then there is a serious question rasied of the recommendation of anchor makers - and possibly this needs addressing?

Jonathan

 

[Rossynant]

Should hard time come - nice to have a big tough one to just let go, than potter around on foredeck trying to devise some interesting theoretical combinations of two smaller...

 

[Sandyman]

If forum members, in the majority (along with those on CF and Morgan's Cloud) think they should have larger anchors then there is a serious question rasied of the recommendation of anchor makers - and possibly this needs addressing?

Jonathan

Anchor makers or Boat manufacturers ?

 

[Neeves]

Oldbilbo,

We are biased, we have a cat that allows us into places denied by deeper draft vessels. Usually when strong winds are in the offing they are forecast maybe not with total accuracy but one gets the gist. We are wimps and scurry into the best shelter we can find, we tie to trees, rocks and set 2 anchors. Basically we try not to challenge. So our 2 anchors, say, are supplemented by other devices, warps ashore, anchors dragging under the bow etc.

The thesis is that we have been lucky, one day our HF radio will go down and we will be subject to winds that are 'trying' in such conditions 'wimpism' will not suffice and neither will a whole armoury of anchors - we should have gone 2 sizes bigger. There are a whole host of experts who suggest we are complacent.

I'm simply trying to solicit views.

I'm not denying others think we are stark raving mad. I would like to know what other people do, what anchors they carry, what experiences they have.

I might also add - that though I'm surprised, if not astonished, by the fervour of BIB - when we actually go out into the wilderness we do not find them. Most people do not follow BIB and most people seem to be using old gen anchors - so the people who post (including me) are not necessarily typical of people who cruise (to out of the way places with strong winds, think in UK terms NW Scotland?). Having said that the CF respondents had a good sprinkling of experienced cruisers who support BIB and publicly suggest we are 'stupid'. In our defense they tended to have big yachts - which might be a complication?, do not know. So, I'm not trying to hide other people's views nor their fervour - its a serious question, or questions.

And if they are correct - then the anchor makers might be taken to task.

Jonathan

 

[Conachair]

If forum members, in the majority (along with those on CF and Morgan's Cloud) think they should have larger anchors then there is a serious question rasied of the recommendation of anchor makers - and possibly this needs addressing?

Jonathan

Again, I think it's important to recognize that many of the boats mentioned preferring a size or 2 up were looking from a long distance cruising perspective where extreme weather and the possibility of anchoring with short scope (plus many other unknowns) are probable, a very different kettle of fish from conditions which anchors have to cope with by the bulk of boats around these shores.

So it is an interesting question for the more "normal" boats. Personally I wouldn't bother if it was just occasional weekends plus a few nights in the summer with a marina to run to if the wind really piped up.

Worth adding a poll?

 

[Tradewinds]

I'm not hugely convinced by the 2x size anchor argument.

Reading between the lines of some of the comments on Morgan's Cloud website it seems that some may regard a massive anchor as just a badge saying "hey, look at my massive anchor, I'm a seriously, serious offshore sailor" .

I've been cruising since the late 70's and was brought up with CQR anchors. Some fellow cruisers had Danforths, one even had a Bruce (he dragged I remember). Back then our boats were 25 - 30 feet - small by today's standards.

My anchors were always sized by the manufacturer's recommendations. Always at the top end weight-wise. We all got by one way or another. I remember once using twin anchors in a vee (as per sailing manual) for a predicted blow - laying them out was exciting, 'real sailor' stuff.

I did a circumnavigation in the 90s on my current yacht (Nic39) and used the genuine 45lb CQR that I inherited when I bought her. Like all cruisers we experienced bad weather at anchor in a variety of different seabeds. IIRC we dragged 3, maybe 4 times in 6 years. All the drags were down to me laying the anchor on poor seabeds for anchoring - sometimes there wasn't a choice. A bigger anchor would not have made much difference in those cases.

I carried 4 other anchors - all c35lbs (so at the lower end of the scale for my size of boat) - 1 Danforth, 2 x CQR types, 1 x fisherman. In the end I only ever used the CQR type.

Back to the 2x size anchor argument . . .

On one wild occasion, anchored with a load of other boats in a very crowded harbour we had a large motor boat drag down on top of us. We were already lying to 50m of chain (the max I had in the early days of our travels) and even if we did have more I couldn't have let it out due to the proximity of the yacht behind me. To cut a long story short, in the heavy seas within the harbour the MB's stern crashed down on my bows and in doing so tore out the chain snapping the bitter end.

So, although I had been securely anchored myself with no signs of dragging I had lost the security of my main anchor - 45lb CQR in this case but it could have been an expensive 2x size Spade . Following that I had to make do with a 35lb CQR with 10m chain + nylon rode - we re-anchored and lay successfully to that for the remainder of the storm.

Also, there are a few places where I would be reluctant to put my expensive 2x size main bower down - too deep, with a bottom that may snag (eg Red Sea 80feet bad weather passage anchorage). It would be a bit of a faff to rig up the secondary anchor (mostly nylon rode so not perfect for coral bottoms) - but if you had to you would do.

My last point regarding 2x size is in case of losing the ability to use the windlass for some reason. Back when I was forty I could probably raise the 45lb CQR with its 10mm chain - in my 60s now it would be a struggle (although I'm sure Binch of this parish would roll his eyes at my ineptitude). To raise an anchor 2x recommended size would be IMO (almost) impossible for me (I'm talking about relatively deep anchorages in this instance 35-45 feet).

I think I will stick with my new generation 22kg Sarca Excel (recommended size for my boat) with back-ups consisting of 20kg Kobra2, original 45lb CQR and a 35lb CQR.

Just my 2p worth.

Edit: Forgot to add. I'm also not a fan of using 2 bow anchors in a vee. Never really worked for me when I've used the method. Always ending up lying to 1 (dominant) anchor. Never tried tandem but wouldn't discount it.

 

[Neeves]

I would think anyone venturing outside their home waters (or even in their home waters), maybe thinking of a run upto Scotland, venturing to Norway, St Kilda or the NE Coast of England (if they are south coast based) might value the airing of anchor choice expertise. I am not so arrogant to think that missing the tide in the Mersey with a NWly gale is something that is not challenging, and not as challenging as many circumnavigating yachtsmen might meet - so the situation can occur to anyone. To restrict the query to only those who go to Labrador or Patagonia - might be considered patronising. Having spent a few years in the UK - it has weather that is challenging, especially if the place of refuge is denied (tide too low to enter the marina etc). The UK equally has anchorages that are challenging, kelp, weed, hard sand, mud - it has a fair gamut of seabeds.

I do not see that long distance blue water cruisers have a need any greater to a debate on anchor choice than someone in the UK.

Jonathan