Anchorplait

[Neeves]

Phil,

Next time you go sailing and the weather is reasonable , take the chain out of the bow and leave it at 'home'. Find a crew member of about 50kg and have them stand on the bow as you sail to windward. Its a very crude experiment but they are the weight of the chain you removed. Have them move from the bow to the cockpit and see if you can tell the difference - that's what your chain is doing to your sailing performance - and this difference will be much more pronounced on a small yacht. It could be you don't mind in which case do not worry and go off and enjoy yourself.

The experiment is ideally conducted with a bit of chop. I'd not do it in inclement weather - the crew member on the bow may not enjoy being the lab rat and maybe don't tell them they are a replacement for some manky chain!

If Jimmy Green are suggesting 10mm is suitable for a 3t yacht I shudder to think what they are suggesting for a 12t yacht. I also doubt their reasoning and the recommendation casts doubt on their knowledge.

6mm would be more than adequate.

Jonathan

 

[LittleSister]

If Jimmy Green are suggesting 10mm is suitable for a 3t yacht I shudder to think what they are suggesting for a 12t yacht. I also doubt their reasoning and the recommendation casts doubt on their knowledge.

6mm would be more than adequate.

Jonathan

I don't think they are. For a boat 22ft to 26ft LOA, with displacement about 2.5T, Jimmy Green suggests 7mm or 8mm.

It also recommends 8mm for 26ft to 33ft LOA and about 5 tons; 8mm to 10mm for 33ft to 40ft and about 9 tons; and 10mm for 40ft to 53ft, c13-15 tons; and is still showing 10mm or 12mm for 53ft to 60 ft and about 20 tons.
Anchor Chain and Rope Size Guide - Jimmy Green Marine

I replaced the 8mm chain on my previous 23ft boat c 2.5 tons, partly because of weight and partly because the chain sometimes jammed in the chain pipe, with 7mm. It was much better, but I later thought 6mm would have been better still.

 

[PhillM]

Thanks all. As I said, this is not something that I have paid much attention to, but this year seems the right time to sort it out. One of my hesitations has been that I have been unclear about what I might want to do .. lunch stop? much over-nighting, foul weather, etc. UK side in 5 or 6 m or over the channel, which seems to have larger tides and deeper anchorages?

I think what I am getting here is have smaller chain, longer scope and mix chain and warp.

For a whole variety of reasons today will actually be my first chance to spend more than a hour or so on board. I am off work for couple of days, then next weekend for the best part of 2 months. I suspect I shall be calling into a chandlers at some point soon and sorting it.

So, how does 30m of 6mm chain and then splice it to the 40m of warp that I have sound as an good all round solution, giving me 7x scope in 5m + 5m of tide?

 

[Neeves]

Phil,

I'm glad you have found the correct page

I'm not a splicing expert (at all) and I think you may have difficulty splicing your warp to 6mm chain. I'd like to hear opinions on that. I would suggest an eye splice onto an enlarged link (and I happen to have the enlarged link). So don't worry about the enlarged link - see what people say about an eye splice and long splice in 6mm chain with your warp.

Coincidentally I'm going to start a thread later today 7th July on galvanising enlarged links on the PBO side of the forum, look our for it.

Jonathan

 

[Stemar]

So, how does 30m of 6mm chain and then splice it to the 40m of warp that I have sound as an good all round solution, giving me 7x scope in 5m + 5m of tide?

So long as your back can handle lifting a good limp of that chain plus your anchor, it sounds good to me. You could sit out a gale with that but, since you're Solent based, it'd make far more sense to scuttle off up the Medina and sit it out in the Folly!

What boat do you have? (just being nosey)

 

[Refueler]

My experience of the JG chain-rope splice is it has a short lifespan if it passes through a windlass. I put this down to my own splicing deficiencies so had a professional make the splice which was tight and tidy but still showed alarming wear after a couple of passages around the gypsy.

Of course it will wear over the gypsy ... gypsy's work by friction in the 'moulded' slots for chain .. you are now introducing a chain with rope strands increasing its 'size' ...

 

[Neeves]

As far as I am aware - there is no gypsy - its hand retrieval.

In any event modern gypsies are better designed which minimise wear by the gypsy.

Jonathan

 

[Refueler]

In any event modern gypsies are better designed which minimise wear by the gypsy.

Jonathan

How ? The gypsy works by a CALIBRATED link slotting into a cast recess to match the links ........... its fine when no weight on ... but have a listen when weight starts to come on ... the grind and mashing gives the game away .... imagine that with the rope splice adding to the links .... even with no weight on ... the rope adds size and then link does not sit properly.

Modern gypsies ?? please I am all ears to hear about differences of old vs modern......

 

[Neeves]

How ? The gypsy works by a CALIBRATED link slotting into a cast recess to match the links ........... its fine when no weight on ... but have a listen when weight starts to come on ... the grind and mashing gives the game away .... imagine that with the rope splice adding to the links .... even with no weight on ... the rope adds size and then link does not sit properly.

Modern gypsies ?? please I am all ears to hear about differences of old vs modern......

Rope/Chain Series

I assume you have tried one of these given the confidence with which you comment. If you have not tried one - how do you know?

The jaws for the rope are outside the pockets for the chain, the rope never is in close proximity to the chain pockets. So the outside of the gypsy is designed for the 'larger' rope and the pockets designed for the smaller chain. The recess for the rope is designed to take the excess size of the splice.

I only speak of my actual experience with our own windlasses and having been round Maxwells factory and test facility.

I'm not sure where the grinding and mashing comes from. There should be no grinding nor mashing - on a modern gypsy sized for the chain

Jonathan

 

[PhillM]

So long as your back can handle lifting a good limp of that chain plus your anchor, it sounds good to me. You could sit out a gale with that but, since you're Solent based, it'd make far more sense to scuttle off up the Medina and sit it out in the Folly!

What boat do you have? (just being nosey)

Cheverton Caravell mk2

 

[Neeves]

How ? The gypsy works by a CALIBRATED link slotting into a cast recess to match the links ........... its fine when no weight on ... but have a listen when weight starts to come on ... the grind and mashing gives the game away .... imagine that with the rope splice adding to the links .... even with no weight on ... the rope adds size and then link does not sit properly.

Modern gypsies ?? please I am all ears to hear about differences of old vs modern......

I thought I might add something

You mention the problems you have are exacerbated when load comes onto the rope rode as you are retrieving.

I might suggest you change your practice.

It is considered good seaman ship to motor to the anchor during retrieval. With a decent chart plotter at the helm and a track of when you deployed the anchor you can do this single handed and then retrieve sitting on top of the anchor. In fact all the windlass with which I have any knowledge all recommend in their instructions to motor and not rely on pulling the vessel with the windlass.

Consequently if you follow good practice and the instructions the rope is never under any significant tension. Unless you have a very short section of chain and/or are anchoring in deep water then the tension should never be much more than the weight of the chain hanging vertically when you reach the end of the rope section.

As I mention our windlass does not grind and mash - but then we motor, and once or twice sail, to retrieve. Maybe you should try it - it might be a revalation.

The other recommended practice for windlass is to service annually - maybe you have also omitted to read this instruction (few people do service annually)

You might find oil in the gearbox, instead of water and sand, might stop the grinding (unless it is too late).

But an inference from your post is correct - the splice is the potential weak link - it should be monitored as you retrieve and renewed, by simply cutting it off and making a new splice, when necessary. However the splice should last years (unless you anchor in coral - in which case coral eats textile rodes overnight ).

Jonathan

 

[Refueler]

I thought I might add something

You mention the problems you have are exacerbated when load comes onto the rope rode as you are retrieving.

I might suggest you change your practice.

It is considered good seaman ship to motor to the anchor during retrieval. With a decent chart plotter at the helm and a track of when you deployed the anchor you can do this single handed and then retrieve sitting on top of the anchor. In fact all the windlass with which I have any knowledge all recommend in their instructions to motor and not rely on pulling the vessel with the windlass.

Consequently if you follow good practice and the instructions the rope is never under any significant tension. Unless you have a very short section of chain and/or are anchoring in deep water then the tension should never be much more than the weight of the chain hanging vertically when you reach the end of the rope section.

As I mention our windlass does not grind and mash - but then we motor, and once or twice sail, to retrieve. Maybe you should try it - it might be a revalation.

The other recommended practice for windlass is to service annually - maybe you have also omitted to read this instruction (few people do service annually)

You might find oil in the gearbox, instead of water and sand, might stop the grinding (unless it is too late).

But an inference from your post is correct - the splice is the potential weak link - it should be monitored as you retrieve and renewed, by simply cutting it off and making a new splice, when necessary. However the splice should last years (unless you anchor in coral - in which case coral eats textile rodes overnight ).

Jonathan

Thank you for the lesson in anchor retrieval ...

I think after more than 50yrs boating - I may have already arrived at the conclusion of motor assistance to ease the weight of retrieving anchors.

In fact even though I use a full chain rode with a short rope back up if needed extreme depth - I rarely use the windlass ....

My main point is that Gypsy's have not changed in all the years - they STILL are formed to match the chain link ... NOT a chain link with rope spliced into it.

Service of windlass has nothing to do with this whatsoever ...

 

[Refueler]

Rope/Chain Series

I assume you have tried one of these given the confidence with which you comment. If you have not tried one - how do you know?

The jaws for the rope are outside the pockets for the chain, the rope never is in close proximity to the chain pockets. So the outside of the gypsy is designed for the 'larger' rope and the pockets designed for the smaller chain. The recess for the rope is designed to take the excess size of the splice.

I only speak of my actual experience with our own windlasses and having been round Maxwells factory and test facility.

I'm not sure where the grinding and mashing comes from. There should be no grinding nor mashing - on a modern gypsy sized for the chain

Jonathan

You really are a pain ...

Even my Royal has gyspy designed for chain + rope ... but DOES NOT change fact that rope spliced INTO the links can and will chafe in the gypsy ...

I don't give a flying **** about you being round Maxwells or Uncle Toms Cabin ... experience over MANY years shows me that I am not wrong.
When single handed ... rising weather ... then you may find yourself thinking otherwise.

I am no professor or expert - I learn every day from new events and information ... so far I have heard nothing from you that warrants further discussion.

 

[Stemar]

Cheverton Caravell mk2

I've heard good things about them. You probably won't be taking line honours in the Round the Island race, but she'll look after you when you're wishing you'd gone to pub instead

Don't worry about the punch-up. I'd like to think it's 'cos they're all going stir crazy with the lockdown, but it seems to be usual behaviour for most of 'em. At least you got the answer before things degenerated.

 

[Refueler]

Got to do something to liven up the day !!!

Looking after 100,000 tons of Crude in China every few days and various fuel into Singapore gets boring ....... !!

 

[PhillM]

I've heard good things about them. You probably won't be taking line honours in the Round the Island race, but she'll look after you when you're wishing you'd gone to pub instead

Don't worry about the punch-up. I'd like to think it's 'cos they're all going stir crazy with the lockdown, but it seems to be usual behaviour for most of 'em. At least you got the answer before things degenerated.

Thank you. I put the new warp I had on board yesterday. There was no way that and the existing would fit in the locker. I’ll monitor the splice but as it fits through the chainpipe and I dont have a windless it should do for now.

Time to go sailing.