Anchor windlass for Verl 900 30 ft

[Bazza C]

Dear forumites, as my sailing buddy and I are entering our ‘creaky’ years, and the ‘ook seems ten times heavier than it used to be, we’re looking for some pearls of wisdom about fitting a small anchor windlass.
If anyone reading this has a degree in anchor windlasses, please help!

Our yacht is a 30 ft Verl 900, featured here http://verl900.wordpress.com/
The anchor locker lid and foredeck are shown in a couple of the pictures.

The anchor is a 25lb CQR on 15m chain and 10m rope and we typically drop it in 3 to 6 metres depth.
(And yes we do know that our chain must match any windlass gypsy, so we might need to replace the chain).

Something like a Lofrans Royal manual windlass appears to be the simplest option but the speed/effort of anchor recovery may be an issue. According to the sales blurb it is “Quick and easy” but is that true? As this is our main need we wouldn’t want to buy one and be disappointed.
Can anyone comment about the performance of this particular manual windlass or any alternative small manual one please?

Reluctantly, we’d rather go to the greater trouble and expense of fitting an electric windlass, than have a disappointing manual one.
We realise that an electric one would be better for remote operation and that the wiring/battery load etc is important, as is only operating it with the engine running and motoring up.

What we’re also unsure about is whether it’s acceptable/usually possible to use the winch to break out, or if better practice would be to stop the winch once the chain is vertical and use the yacht’s motor.
Any advice about windlass techniques would be appreciated.

If we are persuaded towards an electric one, can anyone recommend a suitable small one for our Verl please?

And are there any preferences between a horizontal or vertical one?

Have any Verl 900 (or similar boat) owners reading this actually fitted a windlass and if so where?
The locker lid fits snugly into a recess (per website pictures) and is strong enough to stand on so we’re wondering if a winch (manual or electric) could be sited on top of it, provided it cleared the pulpit when opened and any wiring was secure. If necessary I think we could add some strengthening underneath and additional closing devices to make it even more rigid.

The only other option seems to be to remove the stainless bollard just aft of the locker and site the windlass in its place, although the chain fall into the locker may be the main problem.
Any other suggestions?

Any guidance would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[alahol2]

First post bump...
And welcome.

 

[vyv_cox]

This link should take you to the recent YM trials of windlasses. For comparison they also tested a manual one, which was extremely hard work. I had one the same many years ago and never used it, it was easier and quicker to haul in by hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oXn7N3XdObM

I anchor for most nights of six months of the year. I always haul the boat to the anchor with the windlass and haul the anchor out also using the windlass. As the video shows, they hauled a 1.5 ton vehicle up a hill with the test windlasses, which coped perfectly well. Mine is the Maxwell, shown in the video.

A vertical axis windlass would always be my preference, if only that the genoa sheets do not catch on it. The instructions that came with mine emphasised that it should be sited to maximise the fall of the chain, which in my case on a Sadler 34 is beneath the anchor locker lid. I cut the lid in half, strengthened the forward end with plywood and bolted the windlass to it. That was about 10 years ago and it still works fine. Since then several other Sadler 34 owners have followed suit.

 

[Tranona]

The Royal is just about the only manual windlass on the market now. Falling prices of electric ones have killed them off. You may find the article on windlasses in the latest YM useful as it reviews all the major brands on the market, although it only covers the vertical capstan types. Your actual choice will depend on the layout of your boat and anchor locker - some boats can fit a vertical, some a horizontal and some either. The manufacturers' websites have useful information to help you make your choice. You will be looking at windlasses of around 700W power, so a major consideration will be how you are going to provide power. There are choices in the way you do this, again in part dependent on the layout of your boat.

Although many windlasses are designed to run with mixed chain/rope rodes, you will probably find it better to change to one with more chain, typically 40m with same amount of rope spliced to the end. That means most anchoring is to chain. Using a windlass is straightforward - usual technique to drop is by letting off the clutch. Retrieving is best done by motoring forward to take the slack then raising the chain with the windlass. How you break out depends on how well the anchor is set in. You need to consider the type of control. Some use foot buttons, but they have gone a bit out of fashion, partly because they have a reputation of unreliability and partly because the now more common hand held control on a lead allows you to operate the windlass from different positions and away from the chain. A wireless remote can also be useful.

Hope this gives you some ideas - you need to look at the different options. Lofrans, Lewmar and Quick are the most common mainstream brand names, but there are others, mostly more expensive than those three.

 

[sailorman]

I have an S & L vertical windlass operated with a winch handle, works fine.
Had one on my Co32 as well

 

[vyv_cox]

I have an S & L vertical windlass operated with a winch handle, works fine.
Had one on my Co32 as well

I installed one on a GK29 years ago, worked OK although you had to kneel down to do so. Don't think they are made now.

 

[Tranona]

No, been out of production for years but often come up S/H. I have one (in bronze!) on my Eventide and it is excellent for what it is - but nowhere near as convenient as the Lofrans Cayman on the other boat.

 

[sailorman]

No, been out of production for years but often come up S/H. I have one (in bronze!) on my Eventide and it is excellent for what it is - but nowhere near as convenient as the Lofrans Cayman on the other boat.

and a lot less to go wrong

 

[Bazza C]

This link should take you to the recent YM trials of windlasses. For comparison they also tested a manual one, which was extremely hard work. I had one the same many years ago and never used it, it was easier and quicker to haul in by hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oXn7N3XdObM

I anchor for most nights of six months of the year. I always haul the boat to the anchor with the windlass and haul the anchor out also using the windlass. As the video shows, they hauled a 1.5 ton vehicle up a hill with the test windlasses, which coped perfectly well. Mine is the Maxwell, shown in the video.

A vertical axis windlass would always be my preference, if only that the genoa sheets do not catch on it. The instructions that came with mine emphasised that it should be sited to maximise the fall of the chain, which in my case on a Sadler 34 is beneath the anchor locker lid. I cut the lid in half, strengthened the forward end with plywood and bolted the windlass to it. That was about 10 years ago and it still works fine. Since then several other Sadler 34 owners have followed suit.

Thanks Vyv.
After seeing how the YM tester struggled with the manual windlass, I reckon an electric one is on the cards.
The Sadler 34 locker looks similar to that on our Verl 900 and dissecting the lid may also work for us.
Do you happen to have a picture(s) of your installation?
What thickness ply did you use and were you able/did you need to extend it under the deck at the edges of the locker?
Thanks again.

 

[Bazza C]

The Royal is just about the only manual windlass on the market now. Falling prices of electric ones have killed them off. You may find the article on windlasses in the latest YM useful as it reviews all the major brands on the market, although it only covers the vertical capstan types. Your actual choice will depend on the layout of your boat and anchor locker - some boats can fit a vertical, some a horizontal and some either. The manufacturers' websites have useful information to help you make your choice. You will be looking at windlasses of around 700W power, so a major consideration will be how you are going to provide power. There are choices in the way you do this, again in part dependent on the layout of your boat.

Although many windlasses are designed to run with mixed chain/rope rodes, you will probably find it better to change to one with more chain, typically 40m with same amount of rope spliced to the end. That means most anchoring is to chain. Using a windlass is straightforward - usual technique to drop is by letting off the clutch. Retrieving is best done by motoring forward to take the slack then raising the chain with the windlass. How you break out depends on how well the anchor is set in. You need to consider the type of control. Some use foot buttons, but they have gone a bit out of fashion, partly because they have a reputation of unreliability and partly because the now more common hand held control on a lead allows you to operate the windlass from different positions and away from the chain. A wireless remote can also be useful.

Hope this gives you some ideas - you need to look at the different options. Lofrans, Lewmar and Quick are the most common mainstream brand names, but there are others, mostly more expensive than those three.

Thanks Tranona.
Useful advice and food for thought.
We have 2 x 85Ah batteries - should that be enough, assuming windlass only operated while engine (VP MD2020) running?
I'm unsure if we have room for another dedicated battery.
I've seen the YM Utube mentioned by Vyv Cox, and will read the magazine.
We try to avoid expensive, if possible!

 

[vyv_cox]

I have put a photo on my website, here. The plywood has been perfectly strong but I know of one Sadler 34 owner who had a plate cut in stainless steel instead.

 

[Tranona]

The 85AH battery on its own will run the windlass OK, but you need heavy duty cables to the motor. 2*85 is very sparse capacity for a 30' boat these days if you are fitting all the usual Gizmos. Depending on how you are going to use the boat a review of battery capacity and charging is high on the list. If you want to be independent of shore power for more than a day or so you need to think about at least doubling your house capacity. More common nowadays to also have a much smaller engine start and keep the two banks separate with a split charging system. You then use the bigger house bank for the windlass with the engine running which is usually enough to recharge what you are taking out, leaving the rest of the capacity to run everything else.

 

[LittleSister]

I've also been contemplating installing an electric windlass. One thing I can't quite understand is windlasses' ability to handle warp. (I've only ever used them occasionally and then with chain only.) How do people find the warp handling, and the shift from warp to chain (or vice versa)?

Most windlasses details state the gypsy fits, say, 8mm chain and, say, 12mm warp. We have 30m chain and then a similar length of nylon warp. I have enough trouble getting the warp down the hawse pipe manually, and find it difficult to imagine it falling into the chain locker off a windlass. I am also wondering to what extent does the gypsy grip the warp, both putting the 'chain' out and bringing it in?

As I've never seen comments about these, I guess they're probably not a problem, but I find it hard to visualise it actually working.

 

[Boo2]

I have put a photo on my website, here.

Interesting. I suppose the central "star" socket is for amnual winching with a winch handle but what is the other socket on the rim for ?

Boo2

 

[Tranona]

I've also been contemplating installing an electric windlass. One thing I can't quite understand is windlasses' ability to handle warp. (I've only ever used them occasionally and then with chain only.) How do people find the warp handling, and the shift from warp to chain (or vice versa)?

Most windlasses details state the gypsy fits, say, 8mm chain and, say, 12mm warp. We have 30m chain and then a similar length of nylon warp. I have enough trouble getting the warp down the hawse pipe manually, and find it difficult to imagine it falling into the chain locker off a windlass. I am also wondering to what extent does the gypsy grip the warp, both putting the 'chain' out and bringing it in?

As I've never seen comments about these, I guess they're probably not a problem, but I find it hard to visualise it actually working.

It works with varying success. The problems are around the type of splice you use and the rope construction. You need a long splice of the rope into the chain and then a good fall from the gypsy into the anchor locker. Some manufacturers suggest 3 strand and others anchorplait. I have a Lofrans Cayman which should take 3 strand, but I would only use chain for normal anchoring with rope as a back up, so have 40m chain (+ 50m rope). On the rare occasions I have to use the extra rope, I retrieve that with the rope capstan on the other end of the horizontal shaft and then switch the chain onto the gypsy. Not possible if you have a gypsy only windlass.

 

[vyv_cox]

Interesting. I suppose the central "star" socket is for amnual winching with a winch handle but what is the other socket on the rim for ?

Boo2

No, it's the reverse of that. The winch socket at the centre is for releasing/tightening the clutch. The one at the rim is supposedly for manual winching but it has been made so shallow that the handle only barely stays in it. I would hate to have to haul 40 metres of chain with it.

For rope warping I have the same concerns as LittleSister. The Maxwell will supposedly handle warp, and in my case I could open the anchor locker lid to ensure that it stowed correctly. I have never tested this though, preferring all chain.

 

[JimC]

I've also been contemplating installing an electric windlass. One thing I can't quite understand is windlasses' ability to handle warp. (I've only ever used them occasionally and then with chain only.) How do people find the warp handling, and the shift from warp to chain (or vice versa)?

I'm in exactly the same position. I carry a 100 metre rode (have needed to use most of it occasionally in W. Scotland) and it's rope/chain as all chain would seriously upset trim. The rope is 8 plait and I believe most rope/chain gypsies prefer 3 strand (Lofrans, Quick, S. Pacific). This prompted thoughts of getting a windlass with a warping drum. What I can't understand about these is how the warp gets from the drum down the chain pipe into the locker. On every such windlass I've seen the chain pipe or aperture aligns with the gypsy, not the drum, so as you're tailing the rope off the drum, where's it going?

 

[vyv_cox]

I'm in exactly the same position. I carry a 100 metre rode (have needed to use most of it occasionally in W. Scotland) and it's rope/chain as all chain would seriously upset trim. The rope is 8 plait and I believe most rope/chain gypsies prefer 3 strand (Lofrans, Quick, S. Pacific). This prompted thoughts of getting a windlass with a warping drum. What I can't understand about these is how the warp gets from the drum down the chain pipe into the locker. On every such windlass I've seen the chain pipe or aperture aligns with the gypsy, not the drum, so as you're tailing the rope off the drum, where's it going?

The gypsy and the capstan/warping drum are completely separate. The gypsy on both of my my Maxwells, and as far as I know many others, will handle both rope and chain. My original windlass, the one shown in the link above, was the Freedom 800M. This needs the pressure arm to be installed for mixed rope/chain rodes but the later model does not need it. See http://www.maxwellmarine.com/gen_rc.php I replaced my 800M with an RC8 with a capstan, in order to haul in a lazy line in the marina where I now berth.

 

[Bazza C]

The 85AH battery on its own will run the windlass OK, but you need heavy duty cables to the motor. 2*85 is very sparse capacity for a 30' boat these days if you are fitting all the usual Gizmos. Depending on how you are going to use the boat a review of battery capacity and charging is high on the list. If you want to be independent of shore power for more than a day or so you need to think about at least doubling your house capacity. More common nowadays to also have a much smaller engine start and keep the two banks separate with a split charging system. You then use the bigger house bank for the windlass with the engine running which is usually enough to recharge what you are taking out, leaving the rest of the capacity to run everything else.

On Vyv Cox's website he mentions that, for flexibility, he used 25mmsqd welding cable to his Sadler 34 windlass - is that what you would suggest, or is there someting better?

To date we haven't noticed any probs with only having two batteries and usually we only anchor during the day or for a night or two away from shore power or before running the engine again.

But maybe you are right and using an electric windlass will tip the balance.
We will therefore also investigate fitting another starting battery (may just be room with some mods) as well as a solar panel.

A thought - are all small electric windlasses also operable manually (easily!), if there is insufficient juice, or only some types?

Thanks for your help again.

 

[Tranona]

Presumably your two current batteries are leisure type which could be combined to make a house bank. You only need a small capacity start battery - the Red Flash type are worth considering because they are very small and can be mounted in any orientation - but pricy. You will also benefit from at least split charging using a VSR. Check the cabling size with the windlass manufacturer.

Yes, they all have a manual backup, but not all are convenient to use as they are slow and some are worked with a winch handle in a socket.