Anchor setup question

[greeny]

Boat is small, a Jenneau sun 2000. 20ft trailer sailor.
Currently with a 8kg claw anchor with swivel and 3 mm of chain to 30 m warp.This setup is providing excellent holding but proving problematic for break out and recovery after being set in 15/20 knots wind which is normal here in the afternoon.
Its only used a "day" hook normally on a sandy /muddy seabed with no rock to damage the warp so I'm intending to replace it with 8kg Danforth direct to warp. No chain and no swivel. The chain and swivel setup just make it harder to recover over the roller and around the furling gear. I'm single handed all the time and not as strong or agile as I used to be.
I'll be keeping the old setup for emergency / occasional overnight use.
Will the lack of chain weight really make that much difference to the ability of the anchor to set?
Question for Neeves maybe?

 

[Neeves]

Can you clarify if the issue is breaking the anchor out or retrieval once broken out.

If the issue is breaking out, which is an unusual complaint (most complain their anchor breaks out (drags) too easily) then retrieve the rode until it is taut and vertical, or near vertical, and then wait and waves and swell will break free - just keep the rode taut and vertical.

Can you also define how much, length, and what size, diameter of the link, of chain you are using.

If you are hand retrieving - why are you using a swivel?


Sadly reduced ability and shrinking muscle mass is not unique - but there are answers (without the need for surgery, a gym membership or questionable medication). Hang in there.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I might add - I'm not enamoured with the idea of a Danforth as I suspect it might be some nefarious copy with little resemblance to the original.

I also should ask - as room, or congestion at the bow, seems a problem - what size shackle are you using.

Jonathan

 

[greeny]

Hi Jonathon, thanks for replying.
The current setup is what came with the boat from the previous owner so the use of swivel and chain size was not my choice but something I inherited.
Yes the "danforth" is a copy and probably not as good as a real one but I've used it on my rib before end it holds ok for that and is easy-ish to break out and lift onboard. The sun 2000 is a bit bigger and heavier than my rib though.
I'm finding that the current claw digs in well and holds well, probably too well for me as after anchoring with a bit of wind the only way to get it out is to shorten scope right up by motoring up to it, dash up front, tighten scope before the boat drops back again, then back to cockpit and break it out using the outboard. Then dash back up front to recover it quickly before it catches again. All a bit too much dashing around for my liking. Especially with lots of other moored and anchored boats close by.
The chain is 8mm (too big) and the shackle and swivel are probable the right size for that chain, but are too big to come over the roller easily so have to be lifted off, along with the anchor and passed through the gap between the bow roller and the roller reef drum and pulpit stanchion which is quite close. There is also a bowsprit ring at the bottom of the forestay to take the sprit and that makes it even more awkward to manouevre the anchor etc through the gap to be stowed in the locker.
The claw anchor will not sit on the bow roller and i'm hoping that the "danforth" direct to rode will lighten the load and allow the anchor to be drawn up and pulled onto the roller, staying there until I motor out of the anchorage when there's a bit more time to stow it properly.
I could fit the "danforth" and a length of lighter chain but this is just putting more weight down for me to lift out.
My thinking is if i used warp direct to anchor , then it would feed back up the deck to a main winch on the coach roof and I could winch the anchor up tight without going up forward, break it out on engine if required, then recover up to roller whilst very slowly motoring out of anchorage. At least then I've got control and I'm on the helm. Once out of the tight anchorage, I can go forward and stow everything.
I guess the core question is, how important is it to use that length of chain and how much will it detract from the anchor ability to hold if i don't use it.
The swivel was going anyway, not required and another lump to get over the roller.

 

[Yachtingsouthwest]

Hi Jonathon, thanks for replying.
The current setup is what came with the boat from the previous owner so the use of swivel and chain size was not my choice but something I inherited.
Yes the "danforth" is a copy and probably not as good as a real one but I've used it on my rib before end it holds ok for that and is easy-ish to break out and lift onboard. The sun 2000 is a bit bigger and heavier than my rib though.
I'm finding that the current claw digs in well and holds well, probably too well for me as after anchoring with a bit of wind the only way to get it out is to shorten scope right up by motoring up to it, dash up front, tighten scope before the boat drops back again, then back to cockpit and break it out using the outboard. Then dash back up front to recover it quickly before it catches again. All a bit too much dashing around for my liking. Especially with lots of other moored and anchored boats close by.
The chain is 8mm (too big) and the shackle and swivel are probable the right size for that chain, but are too big to come over the roller easily so have to be lifted off, along with the anchor and passed through the gap between the bow roller and the roller reef drum and pulpit stanchion which is quite close. There is also a bowsprit ring at the bottom of the forestay to take the sprit and that makes it even more awkward to manouevre the anchor etc through the gap to be stowed in the locker.
The claw anchor will not sit on the bow roller and i'm hoping that the "danforth" direct to rode will lighten the load and allow the anchor to be drawn up and pulled onto the roller, staying there until I motor out of the anchorage when there's a bit more time to stow it properly.
I could fit the "danforth" and a length of lighter chain but this is just putting more weight down for me to lift out.
My thinking is if i used warp direct to anchor , then it would feed back up the deck to a main winch on the coach roof and I could winch the anchor up tight without going up forward, break it out on engine if required, then recover up to roller whilst very slowly motoring out of anchorage. At least then I've got control and I'm on the helm. Once out of the tight anchorage, I can go forward and stow everything.
I guess the core question is, how important is it to use that length of chain and how much will it detract from the anchor ability to hold if i don't use it.
The swivel was going anyway, not required and another lump to get over the roller.

Firslty I would drop down to a boat length or 2 of 6mm chain

 

[BabaYaga]

I guess the core question is, how important is it to use that length of chain and how much will it detract from the anchor ability to hold if i don't use it.
The swivel was going anyway, not required and another lump to get over the roller.

Perhaps you could clarify how long the existing chain is,
I have a lot of experience of using a rope rode shackled directly to a stern anchor (for mooring bows to), so not exactly the same situation.
But I would say that the ability to set and hold is largely up to the anchor itself. Only if the scope is very short (too short), some chain might make a difference with regard to setting.
An other aspect is chafe against the seabed, where chain would be beneficial, compared to rope, when swinging to an anchor. For stern anchoring, as described above, chafe on the rope has been a non-issue.

 

[James_Calvert]

My very limited experience with a Danforth suggests it could be even more difficult to break out from a sandy/muddy bottom.

It would have good holding power, probably better than the Claw.

In light winds, and little current, the boat will wander about more without the chain. Whether that matters depends how close you anchor to other boats.

 

[greeny]

Thanks for replying Baba
The existing chain is 3m of 8mm. This too big for normal use but i think it was used to increase the weight on the bottom and maybe a misguided view it would provide a catenary effect. In 20 knots of wind, any catenary has long been straightened out.
The setup i'm trying to get is to enable easier recovery after a short stop for lunch / swim in the local anchorage, whilst still retaining reasonable holding. I won't be sleeping or leaving the boat on this anchor setup. If that were to happen, I would revert to the original claw with the 3m of 8mm chain minus the existing swivel for security.
The seabed is sand/mud so no concerns about chafe on the rode.

 

[greeny]

My very limited experience with a Danforth suggests it could be even more difficult to break out from a sandy/muddy bottom.

It would have good holding power, probably better than the Claw.

In light winds, and little current, the boat will wander about more without the chain. Whether that matters depends how close you anchor to other boats.

Interesting observation James that may work in my favour if i don't use any chain. Maybe still difficult to break out but once out it will be easier to handle.
Anchorage is very tight at the moment and hard to find a spot on the best of days now summer is here.
I probably need to "test" a couple of different setups when some one else is onboard to help. Then decide whats best for single handed retrieval.
The reason I'm going for the "danforth" copy is that I already have one and it will be easier to get it through the gap between roller, forestay and pulpit stanchion, no other reason really.
20 knots of wind on a small boat that sits mostly on top of the water does seem to pull the anchor well into the mud though.

 

[Kinsale373]

Do you have an engine? Have you seen how they use a Buoy on a ring to raise an Anchor? You'll find it with a quick search UTube. I've seen it used to lift Racing Marks with a rib and it seems to work very well with a bit of practice and takes all the effort out pulling out and raising the anchor. You slip the ring with Buoy attached onto the anchor warp , throw the buoy overboard and steam in wide circle up wind or up current. The Buoy runs down the warp and chain and its the engine power that lifts the anchor. Once the anchor is up to the buoy you cut the engine, and drift back down current/wind to the buoy retreiving the warp/chain as you go. I like it as a solution as you keep your current anchoring system that seem to work well for you and don't need to add a windlass. Have you considered a manual windlass?
Kinsale 373

 

[Neeves]

It would help (you) if you posted a picture of your bow.

Once an anchor engages it will set with increasing tension, so if you back up with your outboard and then the wind increases the anchor will set more deeply. The chain helps with initial set as most older anchors are designed to be at their best with some chain in the rode. Don't rely on the Danforth, or any anchor, to set more shallow as if you have no chain - the anchor is designed to set with the fluke at 30 degrees - once it engages (offers some hold) it will set at 30 degrees.

You chain is far too large, it would suit a 35' yacht my guess is that the shackle is also far too big - hence a lot of your problems in getting everything onto the bow roller - possibly designed round 6mm chain and appropriate sized shackle.

You mention that the Bruce does not fit on the bow roller - what you need then is an anchor that does fit on the bow roller and my first thought would be a Kobra., cheap and cheerful and is well rated by members here (and I have one and think it a good anchor.). But I have no idea if it will fit. Other options would be a Vulcan or an Epsilon. The Kobra has the advantage it 'sort of' folds up and if you were to remove from the bow roller - it might Abe easier to store.

If you had an anchor that would fit and a rode you could winch in that also fits the bow roller - you could then retreive using a sheet winch, you could retreive till you have the anchor on the bow roller, motor away from other yachts - and then tidy up.

My thought are not to use a Danforth as if it is any good it will be difficult to break out. I'd suggest a convex anchor, as it does not lift mud, which limits you to a Kobra (should be available from most chandlers), Excel (from Jimmy Green - but I think expensive) or Epsilon or Vulcan (any Chandler but I don't know anything about either. You could buy a small Spade - they are really good - but not cheap.

I'd invest in a short length of 6mm chain and find a shackle that fits the chain - look for a CMP Titan Black Pin shackle - should be available from a chandler selling Rocna, Vulcan or CMP Titan chain. Do not buy the CMP Titan yellow pin shackle - they are not as strong as the Titan Black Pin shackles. Ideally you want to sit on the chandler floor with the anchors, chain and shackles and find out what fits. You may find 2, anchors, that fit neatly - have the chandler 'sell' you the anchors on the basis you can return one or both - if they actually do not fit your bow roller. and the congestion.

You want to be able to house the anchor on the bow roller - so you need to find some way to secure it (rope is the obvious answer - but I don't know what you tie the rope to - as I have no idea what your deck looks like). I'd store the bulk of the rode in a milk crate (then it can drain) or something like a milk crate perforated bucket)

I'm thinking

You retreive the anchor till it is on the bow roller - you have lots of grunt as you are using a winch. The chain is sufficiently short that it does not reach the winch. You motor to somewhere with space. Lash anchor, disengage shackle and pack the rode in your container of choice - store in a stern locker - go sailing.

I would use chain, help your anchor as much as possible and the chain will stop the rope floating about and getting round your keel and rudder.


Don't rush of and spend money - think this through list your questions, here, and make sure you are comfortable with the ideas - you will get lots of ideas. Send a picture of your foredeck.

I don't normally suggest Titan Black pin shackles because the WLL stamped on the shackle is Imperial, not metric - and I think in the UK and Australia people will think it is a metric strength. But you cannot access any better shackles easily in sizes smaller that 3/8th" - which is far too big. I thus - in this exceptional case suggest a Black Pin shackle. Yellow pin shackles are about 50% of the strength of the Black pin shackles. You may have access to other shackles - that are stronger than the average gal shackle - I don't know. But you need a 1/4" or 5/16" shackle - so needs must. Only use one shackle - it will need to be secured properly and adding mousing wire each time will be a faff - so you may want to store the short length of chain at the bow (bow locker?) and remove the rope in the perforated container.

Be patient

Jonathan

 

[PetiteFleur]

Another suggestion for the joining shackle is to use a stainless shackle with a hexagon countersunk head for the pin, so no projection to catch. Wichard make one which is self locking but a bit expensive. Other makes are available but you'll have to fix the pin with Loctite. Definitely change to 6mm chain which is more than adequate for your size of boat.

 

[greeny]

Thanks for the suggestions guys.
I think consensus says to keep a length of chain but down size to 6 mm. Get a good shackle that fits and is not too large/ obtrusive to impede coming over the roller, feed the anchor rode back to a sheet winch to help recovery.
I'm going to try the "danforth" just to see if i can break it out but I will maybe have to invest in something like a Kobra that may fit the front roller better. I don't intend sailing with the anchor on the roller but it would certainly help to have it stow there whilst leaving the anchorage.
Thanks to all for the ideas and observations. There's no point in trying to re invent the wheel when others have already got experience of a working solution in similar situation.
I'll get a photo of the bow today and post it just for completion for those interested.
Having always had an anchor winch on previous larger boats, I hadn't appreciated the effort needed to lift the ground tackle and stow manually especially when single handed.

 

[roaringgirl]

I have been amazed how easy it is to retreive our fortress (x-27, with 10m of 10mm chain and 60m of rope). Especially after all the horror stories about breaking them out. I swam on it and checked it was properly set, retreived easily by hand with a little patience. The anchor, being aluminium is so light, I can just lift it over the pullpit, undo the shackle and chuck it in the anchor locker. The Fortress is our spare, we also have a 25kg Rocna on 80m of 10mm chain, but I'm not using it at the moment because I'm afraid our windlass will die before the new one arrives. Even after we have the new windlass, I am tempted to just keep using the Fortress, it's quite satisfying to not need the windlass!

 

[Davy_S]

Do you have an engine? Have you seen how they use a Buoy on a ring to raise an Anchor? You'll find it with a quick search UTube. I've seen it used to lift Racing Marks with a rib and it seems to work very well with a bit of practice and takes all the effort out pulling out and raising the anchor. You slip the ring with Buoy attached onto the anchor warp , throw the buoy overboard and steam in wide circle up wind or up current. The Buoy runs down the warp and chain and its the engine power that lifts the anchor. Once the anchor is up to the buoy you cut the engine, and drift back down current/wind to the buoy retreiving the warp/chain as you go. I like it as a solution as you keep your current anchoring system that seem to work well for you and don't need to add a windlass. Have you considered a manual windlass?
Kinsale 373

Yes, using an Alderney ring works very well, i used one a lot on a fishing boat, what you have to remember is, the weight of chain should be heavier than the anchor, this means the buoy will be holding the anchor with the chain below it, so you can retrieve it at your leisure, if the chain is not heavy enough, the anchor will simply drop back down to the bottom.

 

[johnalison]

Our method of breaking out a recalcitrant anchor was just to pull the chain up tight and leave it for a few minutes. Almost always it it would break out easily after that. Apologies if this has already been mentioned.

 

[Neeves]

A word of caution on retrieving a Danforth, obvious really.

I you are retrieving 'remotely' at a sheet winch you are not going to see the anchor - so you need to mark the rope (bit of cloth tape through the rope) so that you can stop the retrieval when the anchor is simply hanging. If you retreive too aggressively you might take chips out of the gelcoat as, having two flukes or one fluke with 2 toes the toes will hit the gelcoat.

Its not been mentioned but a Fortress would be a better choice than a Danforth, for the reason mentioned by Roaring Girl - Fortress are light (but heavier on the wallet) than almost any other anchor.

All of these anchors, Kobra, Fortress will come up on eBay - keep looking.

Jimmy Green are selling som galvanised shackles with recessed pins, I think they are French. I don't know how small they come. You could use a stainless shackle with a recessed pin - but I'm twitchy about using stainless shackles on ground tackle - its probably not an issue in this installation - except the shackle would need to be small to fit 6mm chain (and it sets a bad example)

My thoughts favour a decent shackle locked with Loctite or well moused, at the anchor. A length of 6mm chain and a rope that can easily be disengaged. The anchor and chain can then be stored together (bow locker - if it exists) and the rope in a perforated container (so that it drains). This necessitates being able to secure the anchor on the bow roller as the rope and chain are split. (lash anchor to bow roller or nearest horn cleat or stanchion). I'd secure the rope to the chain with a spliced eye, tight, neat, small eye, and shackle which I would mouse with a cable tie (cheap and easily cut). Keep a supply of cable ties, the short little thin ones, in the container that hold the rope. Each time you retreive you cut the cable tie. The alternative to a cable tie is blue lactate, - just a dab, it will hold and it sets under water - tighten well (you would need Loctite if its a recessed pin)

It is not clear why the anchor needs to be removed from the bow roller - though the stock of a Danforth and its flukes are specifically designed to catch sheets.

Further thoughts - a Danforth, and Fortress are good in sand and mud but a bit of a liability in weed, pebbles and shells. Most other anchors will at least try to hold you in light weed and the Hobra should be good in shell and pebbles. You already have (and I understand will continue to carry) the Bruce - I'd prioritise the weed and pebbles - which points you toward, Kobra, Excel, Spade etc.

Jonathan

 

[greeny]

Photos attached of before and after, well almost. Just got to get some 6mm chain to add to the smaller "danforth" copy.
I went out yesterday to try the setup but there was next to no wind so waste of time really. The only thing I proved was that the anchor could be pre hung from the bow roller just before entering the anchorage and deployed from the cockpit. Also retrieved from the cockpit and left hanging until out of the tight anchorage. The anchor won't come over the bow roller though, without hitting the bowsprit ring and reefing drum. At least it's cut down on the number of trips forward and back to set or retrieve the anchor. Work in progress still but getting there.
The claw anchor will never fit in the bow roller but the danforth can just about be stowed there without hitting and damaging the bow gelcoat although it's very close. I'll need to do some careful measurement before buying the next anchor and that may determine which one I will opt for. The cheap danforth is not the end solution here, but will do for now.
Thanks to everyone for your input.

 

[Neeves]

If you mark your rode, the rope part, you can retrieve the anchor to the sheet winch so that the anchor is 'secured' sufficient you can motor to tidy up. You will need to 'play about' with where the anchor lies to be secure and the marks reaches the winch. I'd use 3m of 6mm chain. I assume that shallow bath is not a bath but the anchor locker I might suggest you ditch the anchor that looks like a Danforth (but is definitely not). My suggestion is try a Kobra, it has a 'long' narrow fluke, sort of folds up, and is the most likely anchor to fit in your bow locker. You need to find a chandler selling a Kobra and you will see what 'sort of folds up' means. A Fortress will also fit in your bow locker but may be difficult to remove from the bow roller - the stock is quite long (or wide).

Thinking outside the box.

Assuming that is a stainless bow roller. Go and buy some stainless plate of the same plate thickness of the bow roller. Make measurement of the size necessary and extend the bow roller forward. There appear to be plenty of holes in the existing bow roller to allow you to bolt a short extension. You can then retreive and house the anchor on the extended bow roller. You can do this your self - angle grinder and drill - your investment is a bit of stainless plate and time (assuming you have the angle grinder and drill). You might be able to use the existing roller - just move it forward. - and use the old holes as one place to bolt the extension. Ideally you want the extension to be 'U' shaped (maybe buy angle not plate or a 'U' shaped piece - but I suspect it will not need to extend much. I have noted that the bow roller also supports the forestay - I'd actually build a whole new bow roller - but I accept that might be a step - far to far.

You could ask someone to make something but it will cost and simply cutting plate and drilling it is not difficult (you will get lots of advice here). You can use the angle grinder to help you polish the stainless.

Jonathan

 

[srm]

Just a thought, I have come across mention of weighted rope specifically for anchoring, The last time was in the spec of Dragonfly trimarans, so perhaps more Scandinavian with their use of stern anchors. Gleistein Lead Line is one brand with lead weight in the core (On SVB website). Could simplify your anchor rode and prevent floating rope problems. May need long scope to set the anchor, but could probably be shortened once set.