Anchor chain, antifouling

[David156]

Hi, I would be grateful for advice from more experienced cruisers about ground tackle and antifouling. I have a 50ft light displacement (12 ton) sloop, with no ground tackle, chain or windlass and I have to convert the forward sail locker to an anchor locker. I am thinking of buying 100m of 10mm grade 40 galvanised chain for the main anchor (35kg - yet to be bought) and 60m for the second anchor. I understand that grade 70 provides 25-30% more strength - is this necessary given the extra cost. We will be anchoring quite a bit to reduce marina charges. Cruising area initially will be northern and Atlantic coasts of Europe. The boat has been dry sailed in fresh water and so I will need to apply antifouling for the first time. I am confused with all the different paints out there. What would you recommend and can I do it myself or would you suggest using the experts? (cost). Can anyone suggest anchorages, pile moorings, etc on the coast of Hampshire or Dorset for the first few months. We shall live aboard. Thanks. David

 

[vyv_cox]

The advantage of going to grade 70 is that you could come down a size, saving weight. Having said that, 8 mm grade 70 just might be pushing it a bit for a 50 ft boat. You would need to look at recommended rode strengths.

 

[Stemar]

I don't know if a mixed rode would work on a boat of that size, but 20m of chain and the rest rope would save a lot of weight and money compared with all chain. If you do go for a mix, make sure they gypsy on your windlass does both.

As for moorings, I'd talk to Gosport Boat Yard. Far from the cheapest, but well maintained, plus you get a water taxi included. I wouldn't use Quai Lane, as there is a question mark over the maintenance of their moorings; a number of boats on them went walkabout in last summer's storms. For a pontoon mooring, Wicor Marine would be worth a call They have some isolated pontoons and some walk ashore ones. Don't be afraid of a drying mooring in Portsmouth Harbour, it's deep, gloopy mud, so your keel will just sink in and you'll stay upright in most places. Just don't expect your antifoul to work, either the mud protects them or Portsmouth barnacles are immune to copper.

 

[Minerva]

Ignoring your question altogether but I'm intrigued by a light displacement 50fter that only been dry sailed so far - what is she?

 

[srm]

There is nothing special about applying antifouling, just use an appropriate paint roller with a long (2 metre or there abouts) handle. I have never paid someone to do it in around 50 years of boat owning, even applied Coppercoat with the boat ashore in Plymouth. It does take time though and remember that you are applying a poisonous coating so dress and act accordingly.

 

[Refueler]

There is nothing special about applying antifouling, just use an appropriate paint roller with a long (2 metre or there abouts) handle. I have never paid someone to do it in around 50 years of boat owning, even applied Coppercoat with the boat ashore in Plymouth. It does take time though and remember that you are applying a poisonous coating so dress and act accordingly.

Tip :

Take a pop bottle and cut it short at about 1/3rd way down from neck .... then slide the paint handle in the bottle and out the screw neck .... slide bottle up to near the paint end .... tape round to seal ...

It will then catch the paint running down the handle and not end up all over your hands etc. !

 

[Refueler]

I have to say that its a amazing day when (apologies and not being rude) a possible newbie goes out and gets a 50ft'r !!

Now that IS something !!

 

[Tranona]

Welcome to the forum

100m of 10mm chain is excessive and will weigh 230kgs compared with 8mm at 143kgs. Grade 70 8mm is stronger than 10mm grade 40. There is no real advantage in weight in chain and 8mm, even grade 40 is more than adequate for your needs. 60m is more common with the ability to add extra rope if required. For the second anchor a mixed rode of 20 or 30m of chain and 40 or rope is appropriate. The older recommendations of chain and anchor sizes come from a time when anchors had far lower holding power and poor setting ability and chain was less reliable than now. A new generation anchor is far superior and both anchor and chain really do not need to be as heavy as older gear. It would be helpful to know more about the boat as a 12T 50' is outside the "norm" for anchor recommendations.

For antifoul, strongly recommend while the boat has a nice clean hull to apply Coppercoat, particularly as you intend living aboard and being afloat all the time. It really does, if properly applied work and only requires a periodic power wash.

You will not find it easy getting moorings for that size boat along the south coast and any with decent shore access will be very expensive. Most marinas do not allow overt liveaboards although short term berthing, particularly in the winter is tolerated. Very few swinging moorings and anchorages are tenable in the winter months.

 

[Refueler]

While I agree with "T" about modern anchors generally holding better than older ... I caution about going light.

1. I assume the boat at 50ft has more than just hand anchoring ?? surely some form of mechanical assistance such as a Gypsy ?
2. Even modern gear can find holding hard in similar grounds that older gear has difficulty - then weight DOES come in to at least assist

Moorings ... T is right ... many Marinas resist having live-aboards unless they have also swinging moorings and with a 50ft'r .. its going to be quite
a struggle to find one to take such a boat ..
Anchoring will be an option of course ... how long a person (s) can put up with that is a question ... a small boat can anchor close in and have short tender ride to shore ... but a 50ft'r is a different ball game and anchoring will be a fair way out ...

I'm intrigued as the previous use of the boat ... dry-sailed in FW ..... any more info on that ??

What actual boat is it ??

 

[Daydream believer]

I have to say that its a amazing day when (apologies and not being rude) a possible newbie goes out and gets a 50ft'r !!

Now that IS something !!

It is what is now known as a "Starter boat". Try & keep up with the times

 

[srm]

It is what is now known as a "Starter boat". Try & keep up with the times

As a student in the early 70's I crewed on a Linton Hope design, first launched in 1918 and around 46ft long. The owner's previous boat had been a sailing dinghy. His reason for buying this, his first yacht, was that most people started with a small one, then moved up in size every few years. He decided to start with the yacht he would finish his sailing career with. The logic of a Cambridge don.

 

[David156]

I have to say that its a amazing day when (apologies and not being rude) a possible newbie goes out and gets a 50ft'r !!

Now that IS something !!

Hi Refueler, The boat is a Wasa 51. For the record I am a former dinghy sailing instructor and have been sailing for over 50 years! However, the largest boat I have owned myself was a 30 foot carbon racer. My sailing has been done on friends boats and company boats. I did skipper 'Lutine' Lloyds old Nick 55 during Cows week back in the day. Maintenance was therefore not something I did much of, apart from basic. No matter one's experience it is always good to consult others - one cannot know everything. My thanks to all who have taken the time to comment which is much appreciated. David

 

[David156]

Tip :

Take a pop bottle and cut it short at about 1/3rd way down from neck .... then slide the paint handle in the bottle and out the screw neck .... slide bottle up to near the paint end .... tape round to seal ...

It will then catch the paint running down the handle and not end up all over your hands etc. !

Great tip - thanks

 

[David156]

While I agree with "T" about modern anchors generally holding better than older ... I caution about going light.

1. I assume the boat at 50ft has more than just hand anchoring ?? surely some form of mechanical assistance such as a Gypsy ?
2. Even modern gear can find holding hard in similar grounds that older gear has difficulty - then weight DOES come in to at least assist

Moorings ... T is right ... many Marinas resist having live-aboards unless they have also swinging moorings and with a 50ft'r .. its going to be quite
a struggle to find one to take such a boat ..
Anchoring will be an option of course ... how long a person (s) can put up with that is a question ... a small boat can anchor close in and have short tender ride to shore ... but a 50ft'r is a different ball game and anchoring will be a fair way out ...

I'm intrigued as the previous use of the boat ... dry-sailed in FW ..... any more info on that ??

What actual boat is it ??

The boat just has 100m rode and a light aluminium anchor. I have to convert the forward sail locker to an anchor locker and choose and fit a windless, chain management etc. Hence all my questions. I am flexible so maybe better suited on the French coast. Thanks. David

 

[Neeves]

The boat just has 100m rode and a light aluminium anchor. I have to convert the forward sail locker to an anchor locker and choose and fit a windless, chain management etc. Hence all my questions. I am flexible so maybe better suited on the French coast. Thanks. David

I'd invest in a G70 rode and move down a size, saving weight and space. I'd use an aluminium anchor (the aluminium Anchor Right aluminium Excel and Fortress) or a Viking (high tensile) anchor, again saving weight. The total weight savings mean you can use a smaller windlass and the electric demands will be lower, less power needed, smaller cables). You may find that the lower cost of the cables and windlass will partially offset the higher cost of the chain.

You have already accepted you are going to invest in new ground tackle - so have accepted a hit to your pocket.

You will need good snubbers to offset the loss of catenary from the heavier chain.

We did all of this on an ever so slightly smaller yacht, 38' cat. . 75m of 6mm high tensile chain (replacing 8mm x G30), anchors as above (saved half the anchor weight), 30m bridle/snubber. We would never use G30/40 chain again.


I might suggest - when the thread runs out of steam come to whatever conclusions you can derive and then start a new thread on the specifics where you need more detail. We do love anchor threads and everyone will have their own ideas.

Jonathan

 

[Tranona]

A brave choice for a liveaboard! and quite an exciting prospect. (I have looked at the details of the boat)

Bit of a challenge fitting an effective anchor management system on a boat never designed for serious anchoring. I agree with Jonathan about weight, not only the chain, but also the anchor if you intend having it mounted on a roller on a stem head fitting. Weight of both anchor and chain is less important than it was in the past because of the greater holding power of modern anchors and the recognition that chain weight does little to improve anchor performance other than the dampening effect of catenary. However catenary disappears in above 25 knots of wind and the dampening effect can as Jonathan says be dealt with by using a snubber. Also the difference in catenary effect between 8 and 10mm chain is minimal. The main role of chain is to connect the anchor to the boat and be strong enough to deal with the loads placed on it. 8mm, particularly G70 is more than enough.

Although your boat is long it is not very demanding from an anchoring point of view because of its light displacement and low windage. So the loads would be more like those of a 12-13m boat rather than the notional 15m length. The reason Jonathan said his 38' cat is slightly smaller than your boat is because tests have shown that his boat has similar windage to a 45' Bavaria and empirical tests show it places similar loads on the anchor Most new generation anchors (Rocna, Ultra, Spade Epsilon) would recommend a 25kg for galvanised or 12kg for aluminium. In terms of handling a 1000W windlass would be appropriate and I guess it will need to be mounted offset behind the forestay where the access hatch is to the current sail locker. A horizontal axis like a Lofrans Cayman 88 would probably be the best in terms of performance and versatility, but you may find a low profile vertical axis gypsy only one more in keeping with the style of boat.

You don't say how you intend to use your second anchor, but the current thinking is to keep only one anchor on the stemhead (although common to have 2 rollers) as new gen anchors seem to be effective over a wider range of seabeds and use a Fortress, preferably aluminium FX23 as a second anchor with a mixed chain and rope rode. In some locations such as the Baltic and the Med it is common to stow and deploy this from the stern.

Obviously lots to consider and I am sure others will come along with their own thoughts.

 

[Neeves]

For antifouling I might suggest Jotun's Sea Quantum Ultra. We used it and achieved a 2 year life. Its certificated to be only sold to professionals, commercial vessels effectively, but if you a 'nice' sort of person it is quite feasible to have an equally nice distributor to sell you what you need. I don't recall the drum sizes in which the AF is packed but they are large and must hold about 50kg - you need to be strong to lift them. There are other similar commercial AF, similar sort of life, similar restrictions to discourage use by amateurs, Hempel's Globic comes to mind and I am sure International has something. These are all soft, ablative AF.

Don't skimp with application of AF - you need a decent coating thickness, defined on the tin, to maximise life.

I'm not sure what preparation you need for the hull but all AF companies have a primer coat, commonly 'rubber' based.

In terms of ground tackle - I'd agree with Tranona. Don't be tempted to oversize your anchor - you do NOT need to. Oversizing the anchor does not offer more security but is a guaranteed mechanism to ensure your wallet empties more quickly to no benefit (other than the pension fund of the anchor maker). Our second rode was the same chain, 6mm HT in our case, of 15m length and the rest 3 ply nylon, ours was 12mm x 40m. You want to store any textile rode 'separate' to the chain. Textile, ie rope, stays wet and will produce accelerated corrosion on your chain. Device a way to having the coiled textile hang from a hook in the locker and NOT as a bed on which the chain can sit on (and slowly corrode). Make sure your anchor locker drains - another way to accelerate corrosion is to have your chain sitting in a puddle of rank seawater.

You really want to be able to hose out the anchor locker as it collects mud and salt with ease.

Jonathan

 

[David156]

I'd invest in a G70 rode and move down a size, saving weight and space. I'd use an aluminium anchor (the aluminium Anchor Right aluminium Excel and Fortress) or a Viking (high tensile) anchor, again saving weight. The total weight savings mean you can use a smaller windlass and the electric demands will be lower, less power needed, smaller cables). You may find that the lower cost of the cables and windlass will partially offset the higher cost of the chain.

You have already accepted you are going to invest in new ground tackle - so have accepted a hit to your pocket.

You will need good snubbers to offset the loss of catenary from the heavier chain.

We did all of this on an ever so slightly smaller yacht, 38' cat. . 75m of 6mm high tensile chain (replacing 8mm x G30), anchors as above (saved half the anchor weight), 30m bridle/snubber. We would never use G30/40 chain again.


I might suggest - when the thread runs out of steam come to whatever conclusions you can derive and then start a new thread on the specifics where you need more detail. We do love anchor threads and everyone will have their own ideas.

Jonathan

Jonathan, Many thanks for that. Lots of contradictory advice, but great to have a steep learning curve. My fear of going down to G70 8mm is holding power. But as one contributer explained anchor technology has progressed considerably obviating the need for really heavy gear. I take your advice about starting a new thread. I have many other questions in due course as a new owner of a large boat,
despite my previous experience. Best, David

 

[Neeves]

Jonathan, Many thanks for that. Lots of contradictory advice, but great to have a steep learning curve. My fear of going down to G70 8mm is holding power. But as one contributer explained anchor technology has progressed considerably obviating the need for really heavy gear. I take your advice about starting a new thread. I have many other questions in due course as a new owner of a large boat,
despite my previous experience. Best, David

David,

The hold is developed by the tension in the rode derived from engine power (if you power set) or wind and windage. That holding power is completely independent of the weight of the rode - it could be piano wire. The tension in the rode, from engine or wind, is the same as the holding capacity - no more no less. What you need is an anchor that can develop an ultimate hold larger than the possibly hold from wind. The best anchors are designated as Super High Holdinging Power and include, in no order, Rocna, Supreme, Spade, Ultra, Epsilon, SARCA Excel, Fortress. I think that is complete - but no anchor is perfect, they all need the owner to accept a compromise somewhere. The only aluminium versions are Excel, Spade and Fortress.

The weight of the chain offers catenary and the straightening of the catenary offers a mechanism to smooth out snatch loads. Elasticity, nylon rope, also offers identical (or better) ways to smooth out snatch loads. (better because its cheap and can be varied quickly and easily and nylon is light).

If you have a heavy displacement yacht carrying weight is not so important but excess weight, specifically in the bow or stern of a light weight yacht, will significantly impact sailing performance.

Here are a series of articles, a lot of repetition, on snubbers and some comparison of chan vs nylon.

Read the last article first - it describes what you are trying to manage. If you read between the lines of this article and then read the second last article - it tries to offer solutions to some of the things that went wrong as described in the last article

Pencil-Thin Anchor Rode - Practical Sailor

The art of snubbing, in the nicest possible way - Mysailing

https://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/know-how-ground-tackle

https://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/how-to-dealing-with-snatch-loads-in-an-anchorage

https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/anchor-snubber-tips

https://www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/know-how-expanding-your-anchoring-repertoire

https://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/know-how-ground-tackle

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/anchor-snubber-shock-load-test

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/a-snubber-hook-for-all-occasions

https://www.cruisingworld.com/story/how-to/safety-at-sea-surviving-a-powerful-storm-in-the-med/

I have not checked - but some of the links may not work, some are quite old.

It used to come up on every anchor thread 'buy a bigger anchor' and in case it resurrects again check this link. The concept, of the bigger anchor lacks any technical support (unless you sell anchors)

http://coxeng.co.uk/anchoring/oversize-anchors-necessary/

I could not improve on the article. . Vyv Cox, and the article is his and comes from his excellent website, is a member of this forum.

Finally, or finally for this post

If you go the G70 route you may find it difficult to build a rode where all the components match each other for strength and also fit your anchor. You might find that the shackle to fit the chain is insufficiently strong and/or does not fit the anchor. There are solutions briefly outlined in the article titled 'The pencil thin anchor rode' and more detail is available - if you ask.

Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

I have to say that its a amazing day when (apologies and not being rude) a possible newbie goes out and gets a 50ft'r !!

Now that IS something !!

In Greece we have come across genuinely new sailors who have started with 60 ft boats. In general they were very nervous about any close quarters activities, anchoring off ports and dinghying ashore.