An example of a GPS 'failure'

Benbow

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An example of a GPS \'failure\'

I just looked at the passage planning thread which refers to the risk of GPS failure. I thought you may be interested in an experience of mine some years ago.

In a 60’ sailing vessel, coming up the Menai straits with 4 kn of tide plus a f4 up the chuff. Poor vis, getting dark. The boat draws 8 feet, if you know the area, you will know that at half tide you need to be rather careful.

I had previously ‘checked’ the GPS by plotting the position from it onto a big scale chart. It was absolutely spot on – it showed us tied up to a fish dock with perfect agreement with reality.

The GPS had been the primary means of nav on the passage across the Irish Sea and there was no evidence of an issue. However, as the pressure came on while creaming up the straits, it soon became clear that the GPS position was seriously adrift from reality – by around 1 mile. Because we had a formal passage plan and because we had been following it and were also using the radar for position fixes, we knew where we were and without hesitation abandoned the GPS as a source of information. In a more casual setting, I might well have come seriously unstuck, because the GPS was sitting there giving me a position, telling me that it had a good fix on a bunch of satellites, and showing me a SOG and COG which were perfectly credible.

We arrived with no drama, tied up at Menai Bridge, put the kettle on and sat down to look at the GPS. Plotting its position on the chart showed it absolutely spot on. Skipper gives me a look which clearly means ‘you bozo, there is nothing wrong with the GPS, what was all that about?’

That was a learning experience for me and it underlined the need for careful planning. A prize for the first person with an explanation.
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

I'm not quite sure if you went through the Swellies from your story. Anyway, the straits are fairly enclosed in parts so you may have lost coverage from some satellites so lost precision, there is also two great big steel and stone bridges plus a high voltage pylon system crossing the swellies. If you didn't think they would affect your position and coverage you were at best naive.
If you went through the Swellies in the dark at anything other than slack in a boat of that size, relying on GPS or otherwise you were daft I'm afraid.
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

No! Came in via Puffin Sound. I may be daft, but I am not that daft.
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

Possibly a mix up with "chart datums" ......... going from one chart to another that uses a different datum and not changing the GPS setting.
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

Not sure of your point.

In that type of close quarters navigation with strong tides I don't see GPS as the primary pilotage tool anyway.

Far better to use visual references and transits.

GPS may or may not give you a position to a few metres.

A transit is either on or off.

When I used to sail on the Humber I noted the bearing from one buoy to the next and that was my navigation system.

The bearings were not the direction to sail, they were the direction to look for the buoy which I then lined up with some background object and sailed the transit - the direction the boat pointed was miles away from the direction sailed.

GPS was no use for this, plotting cog was too slow and the machine was at the chart table and I was in the cockpit.

The first machine I had was Decca and of course you used that with some circumspection - at night half a mile was not unusual for accuracy and in some places - Rattray Head springs to mind - it didn't work at all.

But it was a huge advance on nothing - even half mile accuracy was better than "Err somewhere north of the Tees ---------- or possible a bit south""as I once heard.

But even half mile accuracy gave you a reasonable starting point for continuing a DR plot if Decca failed completely.
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

Sorry, thought when you said "up" the straits to Menai Bridge you might have meant South to North ie the Swellies.
I would always use visual pilotage anyway, there are marks and they are lit (but not always easy to see, granted)
No explanation for the error but goes to show that you shouldn't rely on electronic navaids completely.

There are a few transmitting masts around there, I wonder.
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

Absolutely. We had bearings and distances between all the buoys marked up on the chart. Plus a series of transits plus a series of fixes and distances off from the radar. The GPS was never intended as the primary navaid. But at intervals I was also plotting a GPS position onto the chart. That is why the reaction was, 'oh look the GPS is wrong' and not 'oh look we are not where we thought we were'.

That really is my point, when you have a proper passage plan you can just dump one method. If we had been 'winging it' as I confess I have done in smaller boats many times, we might have got into a mess
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

60 footer with a good tailwind and another 4kts of tide would give you a boatspeed of what, up to 14/15kts over the ground, so your one mile error could well be just 4 minutes. If you were plotting on a chart by hand then you would need to be quick and take this as your position 1 mile back or if a plotter was handling it then perhaps you had the 'averaging' feature of the GPS or plotter set over too long a period?
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

Had the GPS lost the signal and changed over to DR mode ala 'Royal Majesty'?
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

[ QUOTE ]
60 footer with a good tailwind and another 4kts of tide would give you a boatspeed of what, up to 14/15kts over the ground, so your one mile error could well be just 4 minutes. If you were plotting on a chart by hand then you would need to be quick and take this as your position 1 mile back or if a plotter was handling it then perhaps you had the 'averaging' feature of the GPS or plotter set over too long a period?

[/ QUOTE ]

Collect any soft toy from the top shelf.

SOG was quick, but nothing like that quick - maybe 8-10kn. And I like to think that my hand plotting is pretty good and pretty quick!

But the skipper who had the boat the previous week, had decided to 'improve' the accuracy of the GPS by giving it a huuuuuuuuuuge averaging period. So we got perfect fixes when we were tied-up, undetectable errors in open water, but very significant errors when moving fast in narrow confines.

(This was a standalone GPS, not a plotter - A Furuno - I am not aware of the option to change the averaging period on other machines, and it took some digging around in unfamiliar menus to find the settings)
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

If a satellite goes wonky, there is a period where it can be providing screwy info to your receiver - more than enough to throw it way off. When the satellite comes into view of one of the ground stations, the self-check "sees" that the satellite is in error, then updates the almanac to disregard that particular satellite. There has been at least one recorded instance of a commercial airline ending up being off-course by over 100nm, because of just such an error. Pays to know the inherent errors with any fixing method you use.
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

Most GPS sets allow for averaging the position as did Decca in the 'old' days when it was usual to use as much as 4-5 minutes, but SOG on small boats wasn't normally that quick. Once we upgraded to a ground based differential dGPS the averaging on ours was turned off and now with WAAS/EGNOS dGPS and EGNOS not yet operational in Europe but S/A turned off (ta USA) it is still 'off'.

Plotting time on a chart can be a factor too. In the 'old' days again I once went down through Alderney Race in thick fog trying to plot RDF bearings from Alderney Aero beacon and SWMBO was calling out the bearing changes faster than I could write them down let alone plot them! I would guess our SG at the time was about 12kts in just a 30 footer but we were beam on to the beacon.

We now use C-Map on chart plotters and the continuous visual position display, on deck as well as below, is a huge improvement in pilotage and even more so in fog, bad weather or even just in the dark.

Can I have a cuddly teddy?
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

You rely on the GPS to guide you through dangerous waters. Brave man. Please reveal your name that we do not find ourselves below while you when you are navigating unsupervised.

Sure you remembered that the latitudes lines are a different size when changing charts
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

[ QUOTE ]
You rely on the GPS to guide you through dangerous waters. Brave man. Please reveal your name that we do not find ourselves below while you when you are navigating unsupervised.

Sure you remembered that the latitudes lines are a different size when changing charts

[/ QUOTE ]

You comment on a post without reading it. Please reveal your name so that I can dismiss your opinion on anything.
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

Like all the others say - its a salutary lesson in not relying 100% on satellites.
We lost GPS on three different receivers last year close to Sicily, and the local answer was recent eruption of Mt Etna and dust being carried in clouds.......
GPS is a great tool - but never foolproof.
JOHN
 
Re: An example of a GPS \'failure\'

[ QUOTE ]
How does high voltage and metal in vicinity affect a GPS signal ?

[/ QUOTE ]Metal structures of any kind will affect radio signals, and HV pylons will emit lots of RF noise. How much either will affect GPS is conjecture, it was just a possibility I proposed.
 
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