Americas Cup - INEOS Britannia splits from Ben Ainslie

awol said:
He was eventually on the winning boat, certainly, but what was his role? He wasn't steering, trimming, grinding as far as I remember. Not that I grudge him the accolade.
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Och, it you that is spoiling now. I was trying to get DD to have to research and enhance his AC history knowledge.

Ben was brought in as tactician, a key role, on USA when NZ were leading the USA by 4 pts to 0pts.
He helped turn round from NZ on match point to USA win.
 
This is probably a mistake...

Even if Sir Ben is past the prime for helming (and I doubt he is).., INEOS would still be better off having a manager with the depth of AC experience of Ben.

There is nobody else in Britain even close.

Of course, the manager does not have to be British, but even so; who would they get?
 
Laser310 said:
This is probably a mistake...

Even if Sir Ben is past the prime for helming (and I doubt he is).., INEOS would still be better off having a manager with the depth of AC experience of Ben.

There is nobody else in Britain even close.

Of course, the manager does not have to be British, but even so; who would they get?
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When the history of UK sailing is written, Ben Ainslie will feature very prominently.

Radcliffe will be a footnote.

We had this discussion in another AC thread. To Radcliffe, this is a pissing contest between billionaires. There's almost zero sponsorship return to INEOS as a company, they're not in the B2C game, so it's not an investment. It's literally just him trying to be "the one" who wins the cup for Britain.
He doesn't have a significant sailing background, he hasn't run racing yachts. It's not like he's progressed from race boat owner to Americas cup team boss. He's just a man with a tonne of cash and an ego.
 
flaming said:
When the history of UK sailing is written, Ben Ainslie will feature very prominently.

Radcliffe will be a footnote.

We had this discussion in another AC thread. To Radcliffe, this is a pissing contest between billionaires. There's almost zero sponsorship return to INEOS as a company, they're not in the B2C game, so it's not an investment. It's literally just him trying to be "the one" who wins the cup for Britain.
He doesn't have a significant sailing background, he hasn't run racing yachts. It's not like he's progressed from race boat owner to Americas cup team boss. He's just a man with a tonne of cash and an ego.
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Isn’t that more an argument for the proposition that Ratcliffe’s backing was always unwelcome rather than that it suddenly is because he’s unceremoniously dumped Ben Ainslie?
 
benjenbav said:
Isn’t that more an argument for the proposition that Ratcliffe’s backing was always unwelcome rather than that it suddenly is because he’s unceremoniously dumped Ben Ainslie?
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I dunno. Whilst he was happy to keep the cash flowing without getting too involved....

But from one point of view I get it, he's spent an absolute ton of cash and has almost nothing to show for it. If he's decided that there needs to be changes for him to continue to spend, and Ben refused those changes....

But once again the business model of sailing teams is so hard. At least with sports teams that play in stadiums they can sell tickets. Sailors are completely reliant on sponsorship. Which is why every attempt to build a sustainable team to compete in multiple competitions has failed when the first main sponsor pulled out.
 
America's cup is just a billionaires pissing contest. I'd rather see the money go into the Artemis Academy and nurture more home grown talent for the Minis, Figaro and Imoca classes.
 
michael_w said:
America's cup is just a billionaires pissing contest. I'd rather see the money go into the Artemis Academy and nurture more home grown talent for the Minis, Figaro and Imoca classes.
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Artemis academy was wound up years ago I think?

The latest attempt at that sort of thing was RORC's Griffin project. Which has also downsized quite dramatically from multiple leased SF30s last season to a single borrowed boat from a RORC member this year.
 
I find Ainslie's win for the USA fascinating. I've even done presentations about it. The full details of what went on within the team and team management are a bit sketchy. Reading between the lines, at the point where NZ just needed one more win, someone stepped in (possibly Larry Ellison?) and put BA on the helm. At that point my understanding is that every department in the team was given permission to run with whatever they wanted. A couple of things were obvious, like the removal of the bowsprit, others were less noticeable. One point of my presentations was to explain that if you choose someone to manage an area, you should be prepared to allow them to do the job they are paid to do.
Allan
 
Allan said:
I find Ainslie's win for the USA fascinating. I've even done presentations about it. The full details of what went on within the team and team management are a bit sketchy. Reading between the lines, at the point where NZ just needed one more win, someone stepped in (possibly Larry Ellison?) and put BA on the helm. At that point my understanding is that every department in the team was given permission to run with whatever they wanted. A couple of things were obvious, like the removal of the bowsprit, others were less noticeable. One point of my presentations was to explain that if you choose someone to manage an area, you should be prepared to allow them to do the job they are paid to do.
Allan
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Just for the record...

Ben never helmed, he was the tactician. Spithill was the driver for every race.
When he joined the boat, replacing John Kostecki, it was before match point, at 4-0 to be precise and they continued to lose races, but without the enormous mistakes that had charachterised the early races.
The turnaround was due to a number of factors, but the biggest change was almost certainly down to "Herbie" a flight control device that allowed them to foil upwind with ease. The legality or otherwise of that part has been the subject of a billion internet posts and blogs ever since.
 
flaming said:
Just for the record...

Ben never helmed, he was the tactician. Spithill was the driver for every race.
When he joined the boat, replacing John Kostecki, it was before match point, at 4-0 to be precise and they continued to lose races, but without the enormous mistakes that had charachterised the early races.
The turnaround was due to a number of factors, but the biggest change was almost certainly down to "Herbie" a flight control device that allowed them to foil upwind with ease. The legality or otherwise of that part has been the subject of a billion internet posts and blogs ever since.
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Yes, it's coming back to me now, thank you. Something I was told soon after the event was that BA was put between Spithill and the team. This created a much better dynamic on the boat. I couldn't, this morning, remember the name Herbie and didn't want to bring up anything contentious.
Thanks again,
Allan
 
Allan said:
Yes, it's coming back to me now, thank you. Something I was told soon after the event was that BA was put between Spithill and the team. This created a much better dynamic on the boat. I couldn't, this morning, remember the name Herbie and didn't want to bring up anything contentious.
Thanks again,
Allan
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Certainly adding Ben Ainslie to a crew is unlikely to make it slower...

I do remember at the time watching some of the footage where they had the audio of Ben and Jimmy talking to each other and it was really clear how much they respected and trusted each other's ability, even without having spent years sailing together.
 
I know someone who has worked with Ratcliffe and says he's basically a British Musk. He doesn't listen to advice, he believes his success is because HE is smarter. The only thing he is interested in is winning, but not like a sports person more like a politician. I suggested his cycling stuff was greenwashing and she said its way deeper and more complex than that: he wants to be liked like a sporting hero but is loathed, its not Ineos' reputation he's trying to save - its his own.
 
flaming said:
But from one point of view I get it, he's spent an absolute ton of cash and has almost nothing to show for it.
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i don't really agree

the INEOS AC team has made good progress.

I think anyone who thinks they are going to start a team and win the cup in two attempts is asking a lot.

yes, it's ton of money - but he surely knew that.

they raced in the final last year. In my mind, that is a pretty good result, and shows good progress towards the goal of eventually winning the cup.

If Ratcliffe thought winning the cup would be easy or quick, he's not as smart as I think he probably is.
 
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