American designer Bob Perry on seaworthiness

[mrming]

I enjoyed this podcast interview with Bob Perry on the subject of seaworthiness.

BONUS: The QUARTERDECK // Bob Perry on ‘Seaworthiness’ — On the Wind Sailing — Overcast

For those who don’t know, Perry is a well respected designer of cruising boats on the other side of the pond.

Very interesting to hear his thoughts on what makes a seaworthy yacht design, especially given the often heated debates around the subject on here. ?

 

[Bajansailor]

Thanks for this link.

There is also a Bob Perry 'fan club' on Facebook, where Bob is a most active participant and patiently answering all sorts of questions about his designs.
Robert Perry, Yacht designer, Fan Club

And his website -
Robert H. Perry Yacht Designers

 

[Gary Fox]

I enjoyed this podcast interview with Bob Perry on the subject of seaworthiness.

BONUS: The QUARTERDECK // Bob Perry on ‘Seaworthiness’ — On the Wind Sailing — Overcast

For those who don’t know, Perry is a well respected designer of cruising boats on the other side of the pond.

Very interesting to hear his thoughts on what makes a seaworthy yacht design, especially given the often heated debates around the subject on here. ?

Thanks, seconded!
On The Wind is a brilliant podcast series, with a wide range of illustrious guests 'letting their hair down' in front of the microphone, from Bob Shepton to Susie Goodall via Nigel Calder, centred around ocean racing and high-lats adventure cruising.

 

[johnalison]

I haven't had time to listen yet but I remember a rule of thumb for a cruising boat from an American designer, possibly Chuck Paine, that a cruising yacht should be able to sail to windward under full sail in twenty knots of wind at no more than 20 degrees of heel. This is quite a tall order for a small boat and mine just about makes it.

 

[Gary Fox]

I haven't had time to listen yet but I remember a rule of thumb for a cruising boat from an American designer, possibly Chuck Paine, that a cruising yacht should be able to sail to windward under full sail in twenty knots of wind at no more than 20 degrees of heel. This is quite a tall order for a small boat and mine just about makes it.

Hmm.. Mine would have a reef in, because otherwise the main would be too small for the bottom of a F4 even.

 

[Laminar Flow]

My wife knew Bob Perry in the day when she was co-authoring a book on a local designer who was much admired by Perry.

The key points I took away from his interview in regards to seaworthiness, and there was relatively little of that, is that the main feature is: moderation in all things.

Moderate beam, moderate displacement, moderate overhangs, avoid pinched ends in favour of a moderated displacement distribution.
Long keels with an attached rudder are the safest & strongest way to build a rudder, at the price of speed, unless, of course, you resort to exotic and expensive materials such as carbon fibre which gives you more freedom to exceed the limitations of trad. materials and design a better, stronger rudder.

The biggest contributor to seaworthiness is the skipper and then he goes on to say that most cruising sailors are not good sailors and some are terrible.

I do not doubt this observation, but the logical conclusion might be that in these cases the design of the boat should at least make up for some of the skipper's shortcomings.
In his book "Seaworthiness, the Forgotten Factor" Marchaj quotes Hasler:
"It may even be worth remembering in the Welfare State - that there may be on board a gentleman and a lady who regard each other with something warmer than mere tolerance, and would like to have an opportunity of proving it. A cruising boat should be designed to be sailed by a small crew and, as far as possible, to be worked without exceptional skill or endurance"

 

[jimi]

I haven't had time to listen yet but I remember a rule of thumb for a cruising boat from an American designer, possibly Chuck Paine, that a cruising yacht should be able to sail to windward under full sail in twenty knots of wind at no more than 20 degrees of heel. This is quite a tall order for a small boat and mine just about makes it.

True wind or apparent wind? Apparent wind maybe just , but if true wind then I'd have thought the boat will be well under canvassed in light winds as in 20 knots of wind most people will have a reef in and be thinking about a second one. TBH I don't see how the size of the rig affects seaworthiness? I'd have thought it more about hull shape, displacement and where the COG is.

 

[mrming]

I thought Bob’s point about racing deck layouts being best for cruising was interesting. I’ve found the controls on some cruising boats a bit harder to operate / less well set up for sure. Horses for courses of course, but in the context of seaworthiness, having no proper backstay control on a fractional rig is one of the examples I’ve come across more than once.

 

[TernVI]

Looking at that, I recant. Contessas are relatively nice looking.

 

[geem]

I haven't had time to listen yet but I remember a rule of thumb for a cruising boat from an American designer, possibly Chuck Paine, that a cruising yacht should be able to sail to windward under full sail in twenty knots of wind at no more than 20 degrees of heel. This is quite a tall order for a small boat and mine just about makes it.

Maybe he was pandering to his cruising clients that didnt know how to put a reef in?

 

[Babylon]

The key points I took away from his interview in regards to seaworthiness, and there was relatively little of that, is that the main feature is: moderation in all things.

Moderate beam, moderate displacement, moderate overhangs, avoid pinched ends in favour of a moderated displacement distribution.
Long keels with an attached rudder are the safest & strongest way to build a rudder, at the price of speed, unless, of course, you resort to exotic and expensive materials such as carbon fibre which gives you more freedom to exceed the limitations of trad. materials and design a better, stronger rudder.

The biggest contributor to seaworthiness is the skipper and then he goes on to say that most cruising sailors are not good sailors and some are terrible.

These are exactly the things I took from listening to it last night, and logged in to post now - but see that you've already put it succinctly.

If Escoffier was sailing one of Perry's designs he'd have come last... but his carbon-fibre speed-machine wouldn't have suddenly broken in half in the Southern Ocean.

 

[Stemar]

a cruising yacht should be able to sail to windward under full sail in twenty knots of wind at no more than 20 degrees of heel.

I can see where he's coming from, but a small boat, which probably includes most under about 35 ft, that could do that would be under-canvassed in light winds. I'd rather have a quick boat in light airs and have a reef in by about 15 knots.

A cruising boat should be designed to be sailed by a small crew and, as far as possible, to be worked without exceptional skill or endurance"

That's my kind of boat. One reef in by about 15 knots, but a deep third reef that I can get in without venturing on deck when I'm suddenly wishing I'd put it in half an hour ago.

 

[dunedin]

I haven't had time to listen yet but I remember a rule of thumb for a cruising boat from an American designer, possibly Chuck Paine, that a cruising yacht should be able to sail to windward under full sail in twenty knots of wind at no more than 20 degrees of heel. This is quite a tall order for a small boat and mine just about makes it.

Any under canvassed boat could do that. But slow as heck in light winds. Add another 15% mast height and probably a better all round boat.

I want a boat that can be powered up in 5-6 knots of breeze upwind. Takes less than 2 minutes to pop in reef one, which creates a nice working rig for upwind in 20 knots TWS.

Apologies, Stemar said exactly the same thing before I got there.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Any under canvassed boat could do that. But slow as heck in light winds. Add another 15% mast height and probably a better all round boat.

I want a boat that can be powered up in 5-6 knots of breeze upwind. Takes less than 2 minutes to pop in reef one, which creates a nice working rig for upwind in 20 knots TWS.

Apologies, Stemar said exactly the same thing before I got there.

I couldn't agree more. I would always prefer a tall rig, so that I may sail when it is the most pleasant to, rather than a boat with a factory fitted storm rig.

In this I could never understand the yards/designers who considered it a special benefit not having to reef until you reach a F8 (for real), not to mention the owners who believe not being able to make any kind of progress in a F3 is an indication of outstanding seaworthiness.

Anyone who cannot reef really has no business leaving the dock.

 

[geem]

I haven't had time to listen yet but I remember a rule of thumb for a cruising boat from an American designer, possibly Chuck Paine, that a cruising yacht should be able to sail to windward under full sail in twenty knots of wind at no more than 20 degrees of heel. This is quite a tall order for a small boat and mine just about makes it.

I had a look at Chuck Paines designs and from an ocean cruising perspective there is nothing of note in his portfolio. Compared to Bob Perry who has a incredible portfolio of successful designs. I just cant see why you think being under canvassed is a good idea.

 

[johnalison]

I had a look at Chuck Paines designs and from an ocean cruising perspective there is nothing of note in his portfolio. Compared to Bob Perry who has a incredible portfolio of successful designs. I just cant see why you think being under canvassed is a good idea.

I think he meant true wind. This was some years ago, but a boat doesn’t have to be under-canvassed to comply. There are plenty of AWBs that need reefing at the top of F4. This may make the boat handy for club racing round the cans, but it could be tiresome for family cruising. My fairly average boat benefits from a lead keel with 42% ballast and moderate lines, and one of the pleasures of sailing her has been her ability to keep going without the need to keep reefing and unreefing. We have no trouble keeping up with or even passing lighter boats of similar size.

 

[Stemar]

In my limited experience, few boats have a third reef ready to go. While this wouldn't be a deal breaker for my blue water boat, it would be a big plus. Are there any boats that do - apart from gaffers, maybe?

What do you do if not?

"I wonder if i should put a reef in?" Conventional wisdom says do it. Ease some string, pull some string. That's reef 1. Reef 2's ready to go.
"Wind's getting up, let's have reef 2." I can do that from the cockpit, which is a good thing because I don't want to be going on deck in 2 reef weather, but reef 3 isn't rigged, so I'm on deck, unravelling reef 1 to do reef 3 in conditions where I ought to be tucked up safe in my cockpit with a Cuppasoup or, worse, I hoped I wouldn't need it and was wrong, so I'm up there long after I should have had reef 3 in.

 

[Stemar]

I think he meant true wind.

Maybe. On a run, 20 knots true shouldn't be more than about 15 apparent, but close hauled, you're looking at 25.

It would be imprudent of me to carry full canvas running on my little Snappy, but I'd get away with it and it would be great fun, but not a lot of reserve before fun turns to scary; the smart thing would be to lose the main and go under genny. Close hauled, the poor thing would be on her ear and would just skitter away sideways; the smart thing would be a one reef in the main, two if it's gusty, and a few rolls in the genny. Even on a bigger boat, there's a world of difference between 15 and 25 knots.

 

[jimi]

The TW 35 is renowned for its seaworthiness, but I reckon that close hauled in 20 knots true carrying full canvas there would be significantly more than 20 degrees of heel.

 

[dunedin]

I think he meant true wind. This was some years ago, but a boat doesn’t have to be under-canvassed to comply. There are plenty of AWBs that need reefing at the top of F4. This may make the boat handy for club racing round the cans, but it could be tiresome for family cruising. My fairly average boat benefits from a lead keel with 42% ballast and moderate lines, and one of the pleasures of sailing her has been her ability to keep going without the need to keep reefing and unreefing. We have no trouble keeping up with or even passing lighter boats of similar size.

Sorry but I don’t agree. By physics a boat going upwind in 20 knots TWS under full sail must be massively under canvassed for sailing in 5 knots TWS.
Also on a properly set up boat putting in first reef upwind should be less than 2 minutes work without leaving the cockpit, and less effort than tacking most genoas. Shaking out may take a few seconds longer. Reefing is just like shifting gear, not a big deal.
PS. We also have a substantial lead keel, but a big mast above it.