alternator controllers reviving the debate

[Heckler]

voltmeter on the bene panel, goes up to 14v and then drops slowly until the equalisation bit where it sticks at 13 v.
charles sterling maintains that his regulater will make the alternators put out more than their rating
i know it makes my batteries come back quick, and they are 2 yr old that i know of
stu

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk>http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk</A>

 

[andyball]

Re: Rather sweeping?

As I understand it, there are two types from sterling (ignoring the analogue /digital distinction)

One you need to modify the field connections (same as other controllers)....the other isn't really the same thing , but uses electronics to amplify the voltage , to achieve the required 14.x at the domestic battery terminals, with a little loss in efficiency, no doubt.

The "advanced regulator" is a traditional type....the no-field connection one is <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.sterling-power.com/htm/ab1290.htm>here</A>

The sterling website has improved since I last looked, but still some blanks....& no more 230V alternator/inverter, from what I can see ??(except on the downloads page) Emailed sterling twice about this earlier this year since it seemed a fine idea, but never got a reply.

I'll try again re. their 3000W inverter/charger.....sterling's site raises the same concerns I had about inverter ratings/temperatures & if theirs will manage 3000W + a genuine 3.5KW for 30 mins at 40 C I'll be buying one....instead of two victron phoenix's

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[roger]

I'v eread all the contributions so far and I expect LeonF is reasonably confused.
I have a Sterling digital alt. Regulator. It works. It has different settings for different battery types. I remember? these as being 14.8, 14.3 and 14.1 so you charge conventional batteries faster.
You want to increase your battery capacity. The standard rule of thumb thats often quoted is the alternator capacity is at least one third of battery capacity.
The point about the voltage drop of diodes is very good advice. There are low voltage drop diodes but I cannot remember what their voltage drop is. I suspect you should have even for these diodes a controller that senses voltage of the lowest going battery (usually service)
On a personal level I hate those 1 2 both battery switches. You only have to make a mistake once to ruin the alternator or the batteries. There are other ways of turning batteries on and off and one is given away by Betamarine with their 60 amp alternator versions of their engines.
You might also consider having three batteries :-
engine start - used for nothing else the tiny Red Flash ones are pricey but might fit in a small hole
service 1 for instruments
service 2 for fridge and domestic
The latter two could be deep cycle or traction type as you will not be taking large loads from them.

<hr width=100% size=1>Roger

 

[steve_cronin]

Purely on a "Sale of Goods & services Act 7 maybe a warranty terms basis, now that you've informed your supplier, i wouldn't follow that course of action if I were you. get it back to them straight away seems like best advice in this case. My Dolphin, bought from the same people runs as described (does what it says on the tin - in modernspeak) in the literature. It's sitting out there in Gouvia Marina Corfu now doing it's job and the plates of my 3yo Bosch batteries are as clean as a whistle.

Steve Cronin

<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[Heckler]

ta for advice but, it was on my s/hand bene,8 yrs old when i bought it!
am happy with it, wacks the charge in ok and the batteries are as good as gold, just is like me a bit cranky sometimes!
stu

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk>http://www.beneteau-owners-association.org.uk</A>

 

[TonyBrooks]

Re: Response to your challenge....

Let me make this quiet plain - this is not a personall attack, but, I trust a discussion of the points raised.

First the MTBF of digital memory devices - my understanding (and I would eb more than happy to be put right on this) is that the MTBF is related to simple time - not use. It is not uncommon to come across Lucas 10 & 11 AC alternators in boats, and they must have stopped production by the mid 70s at the latest, so they are well over 30 years old. In any case bearings, brushes, rectifiers and sliprings can all be replaced by anyone with the skill, nearly every town has at least oen such company. I do not think this is true of memory devices in specialist equipment - especially as I have seen no mention of how the data maps can be restored in the event of loss of data or failure. Indeed is it possible to even get hold of the data!

If one views a boat or its systems as "throw away" items with a comparatively short life (like a car) then I am sure the Sterling unit will do its jod - not sure how - but I think it will. If one expects more than aboutb 10 years out of a boat or its systems, then I think the jury must still be out on teh Sterling unit.

It is true that nearly everything is going digital. This is because its cheap, many applications can use the same basic core designs, with only the programing, data, input devices and controllers being different. This does not make it better - far easier to add features, yes - but not inherantly better.

We have a list of companies that use digital devices, but its interesting to note that in the motor trade it is becomming more and more common to have the facility to update them during routine service. I also note that it is now economic for local specialists to set up test and repare facilities for the vehicle digital devices. How long before the same can be said for marine units?


The maximum output (amps) by and large is governed by the design of the alternator (back emf and all that in AC generating coils), so (again untill someone can show me otherwise) it is not possible to make an alternator exceed its desiged output. It is however posible to make it hold its output to a higher than "normal" level by messing with its voltage regulation (all other things being equal teh higher the voltage the more current it can push into a battery, subject to its designed maximum).

It has been claimed that the unit in question fools the alternator into increasing its output, but to do this one has to get access to the sensing wire. A true marine alternator should be abttery sensing and thus have an external sensing lead. These are easy to fix - indeed a suitable diode or resistor across an inline switch would do it, let alone a sophisticated electronic unit. However many alternators in marine use are actual or modified automotive ones with internal sensing connections. To get at these the alternator may need stripping to facilitate making a connection to the sensing circuit - this may just as well invalidate any guarentee as fitting a modified regulator (as per some alternators and Adverc).

You can not escape from the fact that the alternator voltage is controlled by altering the mark - space ratio of the pulsed supply (its only pulsed once the voltage rises above a certain level, before that the voltage is held down by the back emf in the stator caaused by high current flows) I just can not see how this can be "fooled" and I certainly can not see how one can increase the output voltage by use of an amplifier without handling high currents in the amplifier. If you applied a high current to the voltage regulator/sensing parts the output would go down - not up.

As far as the heat generated in the Adverc is concerned. First typical alternator rotor currents are about 3 to 4 amps 36 to 48 watts), this is very low when compared with the power handled by the power transisters in things like fuel injection and ignition circuits and larger hi-fi components. These are all pulsed devices, just like the rotor circuit, and I do not see many people complaning that these devices are failing all over the place. The heat issue is only an issue with badly designed or very badly sited components, not quality ones with a bit of history behind them.

Regretably, at present, what I hear about the operation of the Sterling unit does not allow me to square it with what I know about alternator operation, so either 38 years of work and experience is wrong, or there is something (shall we say) "not quiet transparent" about the operation of the Sterling unit. I do not know for sure, which it is, but untill I get more info I will stay on the side of experience and caution. The early "knocking" adds which I know from experience were somewhat deceptive have done nothing to dispell my concerns.

Finally, I did not mention it before because I need a bit more evidence, there appears to be an issue developing in respect of the Sterling unit over the need for excess battery topping up. This may well indicate a less than optimum charging regime and raises the possibility of shortening battery life. I await to see how this develops.

Tony Brooks

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[TonyBrooks]

Re: Response to your challenge....

Let me make this quiet plain - this is not a personall attack, but, I trust a discussion of the points raised.

First the MTBF of digital memory devices - my understanding (and I would eb more than happy to be put right on this) is that the MTBF is related to simple time - not use. It is not uncommon to come across Lucas 10 & 11 AC alternators in boats, and they must have stopped production by the mid 70s at the latest, so they are well over 30 years old. In any case bearings, brushes, rectifiers and sliprings can all be replaced by anyone with the skill, nearly every town has at least oen such company. I do not think this is true of memory devices in specialist equipment - especially as I have seen no mention of how the data maps can be restored in the event of loss of data or failure. Indeed is it possible to even get hold of the data!

If one views a boat or its systems as "throw away" items with a comparatively short life (like a car) then I am sure the Sterling unit will do its jod - not sure how - but I think it will. If one expects more than aboutb 10 years out of a boat or its systems, then I think the jury must still be out on teh Sterling unit.

It is true that nearly everything is going digital. This is because its cheap, many applications can use the same basic core designs, with only the programing, data, input devices and controllers being different. This does not make it better - far easier to add features, yes - but not inherantly better.

We have a list of companies that use digital devices, but its interesting to note that in the motor trade it is becomming more and more common to have the facility to update them during routine service. I also note that it is now economic for local specialists to set up test and repare facilities for the vehicle digital devices. How long before the same can be said for marine units?


The maximum output (amps) by and large is governed by the design of the alternator (back emf and all that in AC generating coils), so (again untill someone can show me otherwise) it is not possible to make an alternator exceed its desiged output. It is however posible to make it hold its output to a higher than "normal" level by messing with its voltage regulation (all other things being equal teh higher the voltage the more current it can push into a battery, subject to its designed maximum).

It has been claimed that the unit in question fools the alternator into increasing its output, but to do this one has to get access to the sensing wire. A true marine alternator should be abttery sensing and thus have an external sensing lead. These are easy to fix - indeed a suitable diode or resistor across an inline switch would do it, let alone a sophisticated electronic unit. However many alternators in marine use are actual or modified automotive ones with internal sensing connections. To get at these the alternator may need stripping to facilitate making a connection to the sensing circuit - this may just as well invalidate any guarentee as fitting a modified regulator (as per some alternators and Adverc).

You can not escape from the fact that the alternator voltage is controlled by altering the mark - space ratio of the pulsed supply (its only pulsed once the voltage rises above a certain level, before that the voltage is held down by the back emf in the stator caaused by high current flows) I just can not see how this can be "fooled" and I certainly can not see how one can increase the output voltage by use of an amplifier without handling high currents in the amplifier. If you applied a high current to the voltage regulator/sensing parts the output would go down - not up.

As far as the heat generated in the Adverc is concerned. First typical alternator rotor currents are about 3 to 4 amps 36 to 48 watts), this is very low when compared with the power handled by the power transisters in things like fuel injection and ignition circuits and larger hi-fi components. These are all pulsed devices, just like the rotor circuit, and I do not see many people complaning that these devices are failing all over the place. The heat issue is only an issue with badly designed or very badly sited components, not quality ones with a bit of history behind them.

Regretably, at present, what I hear about the operation of the Sterling unit does not allow me to square it with what I know about alternator operation, so either 38 years of work and experience is wrong, or there is something (shall we say) "not quiet transparent" about the operation of the Sterling unit. I do not know for sure, which it is, but untill I get more info I will stay on the side of experience and caution. The early "knocking" adds which I know from experience were somewhat deceptive have done nothing to dispell my concerns.

Finally, I did not mention it before because I need a bit more evidence, there appears to be an issue developing in respect of the Sterling unit over the need for excess battery topping up. This may well indicate a less than optimum charging regime and raises the possibility of shortening battery life. I await to see how this develops.

Tony Brooks

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[LeonF]

Re: Response to your challenge....

Well a kindly response seems to have got you involved in a heated debate. Thanks for all the info and I will probably decide on the Adverc. Like the Reading College diesel engine site as well, just wish I had more of an aptitude for mechanics. When you've recovered from all this it would be interesting to read your views on flooded cell, gel and AGM Batteries. The last time any of the mags coverd the issues involved--it was PBO-all the contributors were from the industry so one never got a truly independent opinion. Why don't you have a go? And buy yourself a good safety helmet !

<hr width=100% size=1>L.A.R.Ferguson

 

[halcyon]

Re: Response to your challenge....

Thanks for the post, saved me time as I was going to reply.
The Stirling has a diode in the return path to the alternator, thus it always see's .7 volt less than the battery and regulates at a higher voltage. The alternator output then goes through a voltage regulator to stop over charge.


Brian

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[TonyBrooks]

Re: Response to your challenge....

Thanks for the info - another little bit of knowledge gained.

So, as I understand what you say, the Sterling unit passess the full charging return current through a diode (with a dirty great heat sink, I hope). If it was to be the return from the regulator there definately would be a need to modify the alternator to tap that return.

Then, having fooled the regulator into regulating the output to a higher figure the unit then puts a voltage regulator into the main output path and messes with 60, 70 90, 100 amps to regulate the voltage on the charging circuit to ensure the batteries are not damaged.

Now the last time I came across something like this it was on some outboards and motorcycles where a zenenr diode was used to "short" current to negative (earth and thus drop the voltage.

I am even more unhappy with the system than I was before.

PS of course the Reading College site has simmilar views - I wrote it. It would be nice if Sterling felt able to explain how their system works directly to me - it might even be in their interest if it all appeared to conform to historically reliable practice. I do get information direct from other companies.

Tony Brooks

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[andyball]

Re: Response to your challenge....

The idea of taking a full output & regulating it has come on somewhat since zener diode days.

My last outboard had a 12V 40Amp alternator; permanent magnet- & the regulator/rectifier (albeit slightly water cooled) certainly didn't struggle to keep the voltage down ...or run very hot at all when doing so with a fully charged battery.

100's of different bikes/outboards have used this sort of system reliably for years & years - ok there were a few dodgy set-ups, but most worked fine.

various manufacturers make inverters/chargers that can "mess" with rather more than 100Amps ,apparently w/o constant problems........how long before that's historically reliable practice?.

I'm not claiming anything for sterling's stuff, never tried it & struggled to get extra info. about it myself....but to dismiss something 'cos you think it sounds similar to a crude zener diode set-up last commonly used in the 60's seems a bit odd.

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[steve_cronin]

Re: Response to your challenge....

"Time will Tell"* is the only answer.

Your 38 years of experience is not really in question as time moves on and I'm sure that you're not recommending the BMC "A" series engine purely on the fact that it has been around since the 40s. My two Midgets wouldn't stand up to much of a longevity test against my 2004 BMW I'm sure. Technology moves on and the Sterling units give just wat we want, optimum utilisation of the alternator to provide for our power requirements in the Med. I'm not going back to the equivalent of my grandfather's single furrow plough just because it worked all those years. If Sterling's products didn't work or failed in large numbers then the numbers he sells in the states would have by now brought him financial disaster.

As for the Lucas ACR range, well was there ever such an appauling design. I used to run a fleet of vehicles with those buggers and it was always predictable that the middle brush would bore it's way through the slip-ring cap in around 20,000 miles. Boschs, Femsas & Rhones would go on seemingly forever.

As to throw away, then the items I rely upon for my safety, which also have similar technology, my GMDSS & my Epirb can also expect such a failure rate? To take your "back to basics" theme to it's extreme then perhaps we shoud all use oil lighting, tinned food which doesn't require a refridgerator and have the boat powered by a very basic all mechanical diesel engine with gravity feed? OK you don't claim that but modern technologies are everywhere and make living on a boat a lot more civilised. Reliability has leapt hugely in recent years. They said, what you have said on DMDs, about the alternator in the 60s and many rally cars always carried a spare for fear of failure of this un-proved device. Now it's the alternator that is the tried and trusted device but we all know that even this can go wrong when a diode in the rectifier pack dies.

How you see replacement at 10 years as unreasonable I can't understand. Your sails and certainly your standing rigging will be in for replacement by then.

Maybe Mr Sterling is too busy selling units to customers to correspond with the educational establishment whereas the old boys pedling black plastic boxes have time on their hands watching their sales diminish - I don't know. Try ringing the guy. I have for guidance several times and those who I've also directed his way have the same view that I do. The man knows his subject well. Not unique, I would put the staff at Force4 and Marine Superstore in the same bracket. The man at Adverc is friendly too but he admitted that his product didn't fulfill MY particular requirement as I would still be relying for the most part (albiet with a little initial pulsing) on the charge profile of a standard regulator but switched to battery sensing.

My controller is Sterling's "Advanced Digital with Monitor" NOT the highest spec. one that doesn't need a sensing lead soldering onto a brush tail so I have no experience of that unit but the operating principle seems sound so long as it's engineered within the constraints imposed by the durability of the existing components.

If we see it withrdawn within the next six months we'll know that *"Time HAS Told" won't we?

Steve Cronin



<hr width=100% size=1>The above is, like any other post here, only a personal opinion

 

[howardclark]

Maybe my terminology is wrong - I'm using Elecsols for the engine starting and domestics (and an Optima for bow thruster - I didn't want to overcomplicate things by including this in my earlier post). I can top up the Elecsols - checked them a few months ago, they needed no additional fluid, so three years down the line I'm quite happy.

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