AIS. Lies & Misconceptions

[Peppermint]

I'm getting a vibe about AIS that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what it's all about. To many people are using AIS & Radar in the same breath

An add in the March 2005 YM states

AIS Radar
" All vessels over 300 tonnes and all passenger vessels must now carry an AIS transponder."

Well thats simply wrong. Vessels up to 500 tonnes that don't go foreign are exempt. Implimentation for foreign going vessels is not going to be completed until 1st of July 2008. Warships don't use them. Many ships turn them off or suffer malfunctions.

The implication from this advert is that AIS is some sort of radar substitute. It's not. It's a commercial/security/administration system that even when it is fully implimented will offer cold comfort to yachtsmen on a foggy night in the channel.

 

[graham]

Most but definitely not all ships have AIS working at the moment.To use AIS as a radar substitute in poor vis would be highly dangerous.

Even when it becomes compulsory malfunctions will occur .

Getting run down at sea would be just as fatal by a ship of under 300 tons as over.Even being struck by another yacht is likely to result in major catastrophe.

 

[WayneS]

Re: AIS. Lies & Misconceptions

Some people do not/can not have the "common form" of Radar. (for a multitude of reasons)

Having AIS as well as common-boating-sense is better than having only common-boating-sense.

Of course it is dumb to go to sea with AIS and rely 100% on it. Exactly the same as going to sea and relying on only "the common form" of Radar. Both of them are AIDS to navigation.

The people who would rely 100% on AIS are the same people who would buy a "common form of" Radar, install it themselves and use it without undertaking any form of training (Self or taught).

If you believe so strongly about the use of the RADAR acronym, put your money where your moth is and take NASA Marine to court of the use of it. I’m sure that they researched the use of the Acronym far better than any of us.

W

 

[Peppermint]

Re: It\'s better not to rely on any little black box.

It better to be accurate in the language thats used in adverts. The "RADAR" word usage isn't as important as the fact that most things that can hit people at sea will not show up on AIS receivers. The advert gives the strong impression that this box does what radar does. I get the strong impression that many yotties are confused and that this type of advert, in a reputable magazine won't help. I don't need to sue anyone. The advertising standards and hopefully IPC will no doubt sort things out.

 

[wiggy]

Stop moaning, if you dont like it dont buy one! I for one think it looks like a great help wihtout the expense, power needs or size of equipment needed for radar. IT IS ONLY TO HELP IT IS NOT A PAIR OF EYES. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

 

[fireball]

Ok ... so I'm going to create a "Storm Sail" it isn't to put up in a storm ... it will be a computer program that suggests configurations of sails suitable for various boats.... Using this product will help you get to windward in anything up to a F11 and may well save your boat from destruction...

In the adverts I'll just put:
Storm Sail
Need to sail your boat to windward in storm force winds?
Only £250

If I put it in enough packaging it might be of use as a fender ....

My Opinion is that NASA knew exactly what they were doing when they called this product AIS radar - the display looks similar to a traditional RADAR, overlaps the information with that from trad RADAR and will confuse those who don't really know what it is... something that has already been proved by earlier posts.

The product is useful, just rather deceiving in its naming convention... and I am disapointed NASA felt it had to do this....

 

[Peppermint]

Re: Maybe you could

write the next advert for it. You must be very contented with life if you find moaning about stuff thats plainly wrong to be unnecessary.

 

[broadcaster]

Re: Maybe you could

At the end of the day if somebody buys this Nasa kit and thinks it is a radar, they obviously have no conception of what conventional radar is. In reality it doesn't matter what they buy then because they wouldn't know how to use it anyway.

I think little action could be taken against NASA as the use of RADAR in the title is appropriate for this device description. I believe it has been used in magazines during reviews.

You could almost say the same for the active radar reflectors.

Andy

 

[Robin]

Re: Maybe you could

Without wishing to be patronising to some people, there are enough misconceptions in the minds of a few on the forums to show that what we all mostly assume is known/understood by others is greater than it actually is - sometimes. Electronic navigation devices and 12v electrics fall well into the category where some people have a mental block and I believe that the NASA AIS 'Radar' and it's use could be seen by a few as able to do much more than it can and that is dangerous IMO so better to air it's shortcomings far and wide.

One characteristic of the NASA I believe is that it can only display in North UP mode rather than Ship's Head Up mode, another potential for confusion, whether it is used alone or in conjunction with a proper radar.

Like many others I am concerned that it will give a false sense of security.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Maybe you could

"Like many others I am concerned that it will give a false sense of security."

While I agree that the 'radar' description is false and potentially misleading I do not share your concern that it will result in accidents; I think that the true nature of the beast will become blindingly obvious to the user when, in fine weather, he finds that only a tiny fraction of traffic is actually painting on his 'radar'.

It's turned me well and truly off of NASA, though; clearly they are perfectly prepared to make potentially false or misleading claims to support their sales.

 

[Mudplugger]

Re: Maybe you could

Whil'st you undoubtably have a point in regard to the possibility of some targets NOT showing up, and the North up display being at variance with the ship's head. It might be worth while having a look at the AISLive website just to get some idea of the number of vessels currently showing on screen! Not having completed my steel bathtub, as yet, I can't comment from practical experience, but, based on past experience with both Decca (Steam powered Version) and JRC I would suggest that this piece of equipment would add considerably to the safety of the user...Neither preclude the use of MK1 Eyeball & HB compass, both of which would still take priority IMHO. Surely it is an example of the ever changing world of electrickery (going into Old Fart Mode) we never used to worry about Radar, VHF, Speed/W/speed/ C/Haul meters/Lifejackets/Stanchions/ Safety harnesses/echo sounders etc.as long as we had a compass,log,charts and leadline we considered ourselves to be adequately equipped for shortsea sailing!! Certainly those of a certain vintage seemed to survive this apalling lack of essentials.and this was in the 60's/early 70's...By the way the budget for Electronic Gizmo's for new boat is looking like about 5k...

 

[wiggy]

Re: Maybe you could

Im confused- is tis Forum the same Forum sold on the top shelf of my local newsagent?

 

[Robin]

Re: Maybe you could

Actually I do look occasionally at the AIS Live website, unfortunately the NASA screen picture will be a lot more bland than it appears in armchair colour on a 17" monitor! The AIS Live screenshots are just part of the story, the whole story is when the centre of that screen is YOU and all about you is moving as indeed are you. You may be headed south but the NASA AIS is looking north, it IS showing ships around you headed towards you or away from you but it does NOT show the Sunseeker 48 doing 30kts towards you from astern or the fishing boat that has just turned 90 degs across your path with his nets down.

I do remember the 'old' days too with no electronics and thick fogs, I even remember the days when ships sounded foghorns! But I have had RADAR for over 15 years and wouldn't be without it. We have been out in fog too many times to remember, with and without radar and I hate it. We have had some close encounters too but the most frightening have been with boats that will not be transmitting AIS data. Busy as our waters are, we sail in amongst the big stuff only for short periods whilst crossing the lanes, most times we are where they rarely go but where we are there are also hundreds of others, some with radar, many without and none of them are very predictable, they may turn and go home or tack of start lowering their nets, whatever trips their trigger, none of this information gets published on the NASA screen!

 

[fireball]

Misunderstood?

You could almost say the same for the active radar reflectors
Erm - Active RADAR Reflector - does exactly what it says it does ... receives a radar signal and actively transmits a response ... don't get any misconception with that.

The problem - as has already been stated - is that AIS won't always give the full picture and when crossing a shipping lane in poor visibility (when Mk1 Eyeball can't see so far) might result in a maneuvor that is inappropriate and put the boat in more danger
It is like most new technologies - wonderful in concept and will eventually be an essential product that we never knew what we did without (like GPS?) but the initial stages can be a bit flakey.
By all means - get a NASA AIS receiver - but beware it's limitations. I think this product will be at its best when combined with a traditional Radar .

Andrew

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Maybe you could

[ QUOTE ]
It might be worth while having a look at the AISLive website just to get some idea of the number of vessels currently showing on screen!

[/ QUOTE ]I quite often look at AIS Live. As others have said, only those vessels that are equipped actually transmit but in any case, AIS Live takes its signals from shore-based permanent antennae, not a small antenna on a yacht.

At these frequencies the typical range will be around 5 or 6nm if the antenna is at 'handheld' level (i.e. not elevated on an arch or up a mast). To be able to get detailed information about very large vessels that happen to be within five or six miles is not a big deal, actually, as all such vessels paint very nicely on the radar. I don't think I will make space for it on my console as a dedicated display, but I would like the function incorporated in the radar - though MARPA is better still.

 

[colin_jones]

Wiggy and others are putting some sense into what is really a very silly debate not about seamanship but about a name.

Anybody who looks at the NASA device and compares it with a boat radar and is still confused enough not to appreciate that they both have their place, but they are totally different - and not even complementary - tools, should seriously consider buying a caravan.

Whilst pottering around the lanes they might start a similar war of words over the poor old butter-fly, who must confuse people about whether they should spread him on toast, or book a ticket and ride him for the next holiday.

 

[Peppermint]

Re: I don\'t think thats the main thrust of my argument.

The text of the advert is clearly wrong. Strangely I don't like that.

The semantics don't interest me that much but the content does. So does the fact that AIS is as much use to the yachtsman as a crystal ball.

I prefer the "red admiral" spread on my toast.

 

[Peppermint]

Re:If you sail with a lot of newbies

Their blind faith in screens and black boxes can be quite scary. Tom Cunliffe writes a bit about reliance on wind & boat speed instruments in the March YM.

I've skippered yachts for years and years and it's become apparent lately that when I'm heading for the deck, more and more of the recent recruits are heading for the electrical comfort blanket.

I just don't want someone to think AIS, which I've studied with shipping industry pro's, is a real aid to safety just because it's got a screen.

If your radar only showed half the contacts you'd be uncomfortable with it. If your echo sounder only worked to plus or minus 10m you'd be doubting it's value.

God knows, who needs another screen to look into anyway?

 

[Robin]

Hi Colin

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody who looks at the NASA device and compares it with a boat radar and is still confused enough not to appreciate that they both have their place, but they are totally different - and not even complementary - tools, should seriously consider buying a caravan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree with your sentiment but such 'should be' caravaners DO buy boats and take them to sea!

In bar discussions I have heard people that believe their AIS transmits data just like the ship's ones, admittedly that was from those who have seen the advert and not read the specs. Many too do not realise that not all ships are required to have AIS or to have it in operation. Many more have not thought deeply about their own circumstances and how AIS would fit with that, ie people who only ever sail locally or coastal rather than venturing regularly offshore and crossing shipping lanes. AIS is pretty well worthless for inshore/coastal use and the times it is useful offshore are limited too. What percentage of time afloat is spent in fog? What percentage of time afloat is spent in areas where the big ships play? How frequently might you need to call a ship by name/MMSI? How frequently might that ship bother to answer? Then the big crunch is to put all these questions together as one scenario and how frequently would that all occur at the same time? Is that worthy of a £250 investment on it's own or would it be better to put the £250 towards a radar, even a secondhand one?

I see AIS as an addition to radar but I won't rush out and buy one. For me it's main function would be to identify a ship and enable me to call him by VHF, something I have done only once in 30 years or more and it didn't answer me anyway!

If AIS for leisure users is really so good, why are the likes of Furuno, Raymarine, JRC, Garmin even Icom not rushing sets onto the market?

Robin

 

[colin_jones]

If AIS for leisure users is really so good, why are the likes of Furuno, Raymarine, JRC, Garmin even Icom not rushing sets onto the market?

It is a safe bet that they will soon have this as a box, or a 'screen' inset on their radar display, or on the chart plotter. OK for big ships with big displays .......but it will make life on the leisure boat 7" diagonal more fun, more cluttered, more confusing, or you divide the screen, so that it looks even more cluttered, or you keep toggling between one display and another - and miss something which it was more important to see.