Agism

[Guest]

In my cruising life I meet and share a bottle with yachties of all nationalities and all ages. We all have something to learn from each other. There is a bonhomie that is truly without any prejudice.

Coming back to England, and entering the yachtie fraternity there, I do not find the same feeling. I cannot understand political correctness, when it says anything that condemns blacks, yellows, women, whatever is not to be uttered (now wash your mouth out with soap), but which will not tolerate older people.

This is a new phenomenon. It really is.

There is an old joke that says "when I was 18 I thought my father was a dumbo, but when I was 21 I was astonished at how much he had learned in 3 years"

Lets move that on 20 years.

As an old man, I do not mind that much if I am not listened to. But I do not appreciate being told that my point of view, based on a much greater experience of life, is wrong.

It is even more galling when it concerns my particular expertise.

Why do the young (i.e. thiose under 50) do it? Do they not see the flaw intheir outlook?

OK, I'm a whinging old bastard, but I still have my marbles and my strength.

William Cooper

 

[Guest]

"I do not appreciate being told that my point of view, based on a much greater experience of life, is wrong."

Possibly not, but you actually can be wrong at 60, you know! And at 70.

"Why do the young (i.e. thiose under 50) do it? Do they not see the flaw intheir outlook?"

Age might bring wisdom, but it could also mean 60 years (or however many) of repeating the same mistakes. They might have spotted the flaw in your outlook!

Speaking personally, I can think of nothing that I can do better in my late 50's than I could at 30, with the possible exception of falling asleep in the chair. Certainly my brain is not what it was at University, and neither are my joints.

So, no. I dont expect special respect because of my age and experience. And I wouldn't be prepared to give it to someone else for no better reason.

 

[LadyInBed]

When you are away on your boat in sunnier climes, you get the respect because you are out there doing it.
Back in the UK Yacht club, you are just another old codger propping up the bar!
Age might bring wisdom, but I have found it also brings a shorter temper and lower tolerance threshold. Perhaps you should just sit back and feel smug, in the knowledge that you have 'done it' and probably done more than these 'young whippersnappers' will ever do!

 

[Guest]

Well said Howard !

" Growing old is like being increasingly penalised for a crime you haven't committed"

So the saying goes - but it is wrong !

I believe we bring this on ourselves by continually harping on ' I know best because I have been around longer' . It drives people away, you become intolerant, quick to take offence, and become obsessed with yourself rather than enjoying life for simply the way it is.

 

[david_e]

A view from the other side.....

Well Bill, I am 46, so in the group that you are identifying as having a flawed outlook. (by the way thanks for the compliment about being in the young group, showed it to my 14 year old daughter who just scoffed!)

Your point about political correctness not including agism is well made but if you look around you will see that things are changing and eventually, just as with sex and race discrimination, I believe it will change. As a nation we are very poor about caring for our elderly compared to many others, but that is the way it is I'm afraid.

Life is constant journey of learning, my mother who is 74 goes to art school twice a week, has numerous other activities on the go and is now looking to buy her 1st PC so she can go on the internet. She never ceases to amaze me with her energy and good health. Likewise I made an aquaintance on the golf course on holiday in 1995 with a chap of 65, since then we have met and played every year, and plan our hols to co-incide so that we can get together. He is a superb character, we share many a great game and interests, his age never comes into the conversation, apart from the odd tease from him when he wants extra shots! At home I play regularly with a top lady amateur who is half my age, we have great fun and share many views and opinions. However some of the worst behaviour I have seen in golf comes from the "old farts" who think they are special because they have been a member for eternity and ignore good etiquette, their poor attitude and ignorant is unbelievable especially considering their "experience".

It is good to see that you still have both your marbles and strength, and I suspect (and hope) that you are happy despite your self proclamtion to the contrary. These are the key factors to growing old gracefully.

Look at this Forum, there is a great deal of appreciation and respect from the experienced folk who give good advice, what most do not know is how old the poster is unless declared in their bio.

I would humbly suggest that you do not assume all young are ageist and have a flawed outlook, as some one else has said, experience is often making the same mistake over and over again.

It is more about the way that people interact with each other than agism.

 

[ianwright]

Is it age? I've been told by one older than me but younger in sailing years that old time navigation simply did not work , that DR could never be better than 20% wrong except by chance, that "nobody need to bother with all that nonsense now we have GPS." All this as FACT, "everybody knows".

IanW.

Vertue 203, Patience

 

[Mirelle]

Well, I agree with Ian and Bill. As a sprightly 49 year old, with about 40 years of messing about in boats and 32 years of owning boats, if I ever allude to having played with boats for so long I am told that I am "elitist" and "patronising".

 

[brian_neale]

I think that readers of a forum like this are very sensitive to "tone of voice". Anyone who comes over as saying, "Do it this way. It is the way I do it. It is the only way" tends to attract criticism. Anyone saying, "I do it this way. It seems to work OK because when I did something different x and y went wrong" may provoke argument and debate, but not personal criticism. Not often, anyway.

I have been sailing big boats for about 25 years, but only had my own boat for about 8, a small sailing cruiser with which I potter around in the Solent. That has given me a particular outlook, taught me some lessons and even allowed me to make a few useful comments in this forum. I hope that these have always been seen in the "it works for me but your mileage may differ" category. At the age of nearly 50, I still cannot believe that I have more of a right to be listened to than anyone younger - except on the basis of personal experience and evidence of retaining an open mind. If we had all listened to our fathers and believed implicitly and acted in line with what they told us, we would still be sailing around in boats with traditional lines, 4-sided sails and a lead mine on the keel. Actually, that is exactly what my next boat will look like, but I have still enjoyed my time on various Beneteaux, Dehlers and the rest over the years, and have learnt a little more each time.

As it happens, I was talking about age and experience against youth and enthusiasm with my teenage son this morning. Both have their place. I try very hard with him to take the "try it this way because..." approach rather than "do it this way because I have been there and done that so you can believe me and anyway I am older". So far, we are still on speaking terms and he is still prepared to sail with me.

Bill C - I enjoy taking the benefit of your experience, but if I choose not to, or argue a different way (unlikely, but it could happen!) it is not lack of respect but merely a youngster with enthusiasm but less experience! Respect for age means politeness and courtesy, but not blind acceptance of every utterance. And respect for youth means giving space and opportunity for making their own mistakes.

Definitely agree with you on PC gone wrong these days, though!

 

[Mirelle]

"If we had all listened to our fathers and believed implicitly and acted in line with what they told us, we would all be sailing round in boats with traditional lines, 4-sided sails and a lead mine on the keel...."

I do sail round in such a boat. My late father, whose sailing career spanned the years 1919-1985, owned a centreboard Bermuda sloop throughout the 1950's, raced dinghies, and was rather keen on light displacement and high tech materials.

His advice was usually right, though (and he learned an awful lot in the three years before I was 21!)

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Dear Bill

I write this with great respect to you and your wife, your book / books. have been an insperation to many, my self included .But to me, your recent postings, have been a little bit cranky. Hope that . if, I ever have the pleasure of meeting you, and your good lady ,you ,will not hold this observation against me. Bob T. aged 52

Bob T<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by rtboss1 on Sat Mar 16 16:46:24 2002 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Buck]

Hipocracy

Bill,

I have always thought that the best way to find out about something is to ask someone who knows, generally this means asking someone who is older than me.
Here you are talking about the young not respecting the old and saying that they should because the young are wrong! Please Bill if you are going talk about tollerance then learn to be tollerant, otherwise you perpetuate the problem, there is a young know it all club in this country just like there is a old know it all club. You seem to be a member of the latter at the moment, but I would welcome you joining the we dont know everything and I doubt we ever will club, its much more relaxed and life is sweet here.

Buck

Is more than one octopus, octopi or octopussies?

 

[Guest]

Can I sum up and reply please.

I obviously got this thread offf on the wrong foot. Oddly enough I was not referring to sailing matters. I find that among sailors talking about sailing there is little preejudice about anything (except perhaps racing and PWCs). One nevr does stop learning, and that is the pleasure of the pass-time.

I was generalising, a dangerous sally into the unknown.

I rather think comment on my posting has been kind, and I appreciate it. References to old codgers moaning at the bar --- well, if one talks sense, you do get listened to.

I think it gets down to this: I keep getting told that I must not do this, or say that, when I was used to doing it or saying it for the first 40 years of my life when everyone else thought it was OK. Who has the authority to tell me that what I was taught (or learned by myself) as a young man, is incorrect?

Anyway, thankyou for your comments. Let's hope we can all meet one day and see the body language that goes with the speech while sinking a pint of red infuriator. My ship 'Hosanna' is open house for any of you who come across her.

William Cooper

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Re: Can I sum up and reply please.

bill looking at my posting , youd, think i was a creep. I most certainly am not ,I have in the past knocked over, many ,many, men who have disagreeded with me ,even when they have been right ! however hard it is to accept ,old age is the future for us all. Best wishes Bob t

Bob T

 

[zefender]

I'm sorry Bill you may scoff at political correctness frowning on "anything that concerns blacks, yellows, women" but have you thought that your stance might be because you might not be black, yellow or a woman? You then raise your own 'ism' in ageism, getting very upset that you are not reveared wherever you go and that people younger than you don't hang on your every word.

One could argue that what upsets you is that the treatment is an 'ism' that affects you, being near your own particular demographic. To cast aside other 'isms' that affect other people, not you is somewhat ungenerous to those people who are affected by the actions of others, because of their colour, gender religion and so on.

I'm happy to respect anyone equally, until I may be able to form a view about them, not their demographic. I don't see why length of service on this land should afford anyone a head start. If that's displaying shameful political correctness, then I'm happy to go by that label.

 

[Gerry]

'Experience is as to intensity and not to duration.'
Barnes Wallace(jet engine inventor)

 

[Gerry]

'Experience is a comb nature gives you when you've gone bald.'
Mao Tse Tung

 

[LadyInBed]

Re: Barnes Wallace

I thought Sir Frank Wittle (spelling?) was the Jet engine, and Dr. Sir Barnes Wallace did the bouncing bomb.

 

[Buck]

Just another point.

Should you be using the internet at your age?

Buck

Is more than one octopus, octopi or octopussies?

 

[Mirelle]

Re: Barnes Wallace

Frank Whittle and Barnes Wallis.

 

[hlb]

Re: Barnes Wallace

Well they both amount to the same thing really!!

Haydn