After brexit will a UK registered boat be subject to vat in Europe

[macd]

Is this a fair summary of what we know about 2TL?:
1. like Eccles cakes, it's easy to get from Salford;
2. its use as evidence of VAT status is an abuse of purpose;
3. It's nonetheless a de facto requirement for pleasure craft in Croatia and (parts of?) Portugal, so useful to possess in those places;
4. That still leaves an awful lot of European countries where it's of no use (and will probably be viewed with bafflement).

 

[nortada]

Is this a fair summary of what we know about 2TL?:
1. like Eccles cakes, it's easy to get from Salford;
2. its use as evidence of VAT status is an abuse of purpose;
3. It's nonetheless a de facto requirement for pleasure craft in Croatia and (parts of?) Portugal, so useful to possess in those places;
4. That still leaves an awful lot of European countries where it's of no use (and will probably be viewed with bafflement).

Yes.

But it could become more significant Post Brexit.

Personally, I don’t think it will and sticking my neck out, as Portugal pays scant respect for EU rules that run counter to their national interest, I suspect life in Portugal Post Brexit will continue much as it did before.

Could well be wrong, only time will tell. How much time - who knows Any advance on 2023

 

[Graham376]

Ref Lagos just not true. Officialdom in Lagos is no different than any other part of Portugal and I have heard of no incidents of harassment. Much more police activity in Culatra and up the Guadiana. From what I have established the T2L saga centred around Faro and the eastern end of the Algarve. Faro customs issued the liens for T2L, then Lagos customs cancelled them and permitted vessels to leave.

All theT2L requests I have heard about have originated in Lagos. Faro is the regional base for most Algarve authorities such as Police, Customs, Doca Pescas, IPTM etc so they handle cases referred from local offices. A few years ago, before the RYA intervened, PM and Navy safety equipment inspections on visiting boats were fairly well spread along the Algarve. Yes, there is quite a large police presence in the Ria Formosa and although there can be >100 boats of varying nationalities on anchor off Culatra in summer, very few are bothered unless fitting certain profiles - it's a major illegal drug import area. In the 12 years we've been based there, we have had paperwork inspected only once. OTOH leisure fishermen regularly have licenses and equipment checked - easy pickings for little effort. The dive rib I used was pulled 3 days on the trot for safety equipment and license checks - no scuba without license for each event.

A far as Lagos is concerned, we were put off on our first visit. Approached by 2 immaculately dressed aged Henries (sporting gate cards on neck chains to show they live there) rather insistent that we make it our base and join in all the organised events and trying to persuade my wife to run Portuguese language classes - not much chance of that, she gave up on trying to teach me years ago. Have met a few people whose company I enjoyed there but in general, Little England expensive marinas with noisy Sky Sports bars are just not my kind of place. Never been into Vilamoura by boat either

 

[Tranona]

OK Tranona, if you wish, you play semantics (your usual game) while the rest of use try to offer useful advice based on experience and reality.

The semantics are important - that is why we use words with specific meanings so that our intention is clear.

You are right about giving advice, but in this case it is very specific to boats resident in Portugal (and Croatia) so meaningless to anybody not having their boat in that situation.

The only times a T2L has meaning in the EU related to boats is if they are transported by land by a commercial operator, and it is the operator (or his agent) that issues it to show that the goods are free to move around the EU.

A very clear distinction from the way it is being used by the Portuguese and Croatian authorities.

 

[nortada]

Ooop9

All theT2L requests I have heard about have originated in Lagos. Faro is the regional base for most Algarve authorities such as Police, Customs, Doca Pescas, IPTM etc so they handle cases referred from local offices. A few years ago, before the RYA intervened, PM and Navy safety equipment inspections on visiting boats were fairly well spread along the Algarve. Yes, there is quite a large police presence in the Ria Formosa and although there can be >100 boats of varying nationalities on anchor off Culatra in summer, very few are bothered unless fitting certain profiles - it's a major illegal drug import area. In the 12 years we've been based there, we have had paperwork inspected only once. OTOH leisure fishermen regularly have licenses and equipment checked - easy pickings for little effort. The dive rib I used was pulled 3 days on the trot for safety equipment and license checks - no scuba without license for each event.

A far as Lagos is concerned, we were put off on our first visit. Approached by 2 immaculately dressed aged Henries (sporting gate cards on neck chains to show they live there) rather insistent that we make it our base and join in all the organised events and trying to persuade my wife to run Portuguese language classes - not much chance of that, she gave up on trying to teach me years ago. Have met a few people whose company I enjoyed there but in general, Little England expensive marinas with noisy Sky Sports bars are just not my kind of place. Never been into Vilamoura by boat either

As you know I have been heavily involved with the T2L saga for the past couple of years and I can assure you that requests for help are fairly uniformly distributed right along the Algarve and the Silver Coast but Culatra has been a bit of a hot spot.

Over the past 16 years I have visited all of the marina and anchorages in the Gulf of Cadiz a number of times and I am sorry to hear you had a negative experience in Lagos.

Last winter season Lagos had to turn boats away so clearly somebody must like the place.

Horses for courses.

 

[nortada]

The semantics are important - that is why we use words with specific meanings so that our intention is clear.

You are right about giving advice, but in this case it is very specific to boats resident in Portugal (and Croatia) so meaningless to anybody not having their boat in that situation.

The only times a T2L has meaning in the EU related to boats is if they are transported by land by a commercial operator, and it is the operator (or his agent) that issues it to show that the goods are free to move around the EU.

A very clear distinction from the way it is being used by the Portuguese and Croatian authorities.

What is important is to provide folk accurate advice and warn them of possible problems.

Of all people I do not need a lecture on use of English or T2L.

I do not dispute the true purpose of the T2L and that Portugal and Croatia are misusing it. However, if that is what they want, in their jurisdiction, I would suggest it is easier to comply. Especially as the fix is so easy.

I would suggest, Post Brexit this could be a bigger issue so it may be a good idea to be prepared.

I look forward to hear how well your pedantic approach goes down with the Portuguese authorities.

 

[Tranona]

What is important is to provide folk accurate advice and warn them of possible problems.

Of all people I do not need a lecture on use of English or T2L.

I do not dispute the true purpose of the T2L and that Portugal and Croatia are misusing it. However, if that is what they want, in their jurisdiction, I would suggest it is easier to comply. Especially as the fix is so easy.

I would suggest, Post Brexit this could be a bigger issue so it may be a good idea to be prepared.

I look forward to hear how well your pedantic approach goes down with the Portuguese authorities.

The same advice is readily available on the RYA website so it is really no big deal.

If we do leave the EU (and that is a big IF in relation to VAT) the T2L is unlikely to have any relevance at all. There is no preparation you can make for post Brexit as nobody has any idea what the changes will be. The only possibility is if you intend moving around the EU with your boat you should buy one on which the VAT was paid in one of the remaining 27 states.

If I intended to take my boat to Portugal (or Croatia) I would get a T2L as I follow advice from reliable sources. Would not however change my views on the meaninglessness of the piece of paper in this context, but I will of course recognise its usefulness.

 

[nortada]

The same advice is readily available on the RYA website so it is really no big deal.

If we do leave the EU (and that is a big IF in relation to VAT) the T2L is unlikely to have any relevance at all. There is no preparation you can make for post Brexit as nobody has any idea what the changes will be. The only possibility is if you intend moving around the EU with your boat you should buy one on which the VAT was paid in one of the remaining 27 states.

If I intended to take my boat to Portugal (or Croatia) I would get a T2L as I follow advice from reliable sources. Would not however change my views on the meaninglessness of the piece of paper in this context, but I will of course recognise its usefulness.

Thank you for your recognition that I am a reliable source!

Word to the wise, if you followed the original RYA advice or the Cruising Club advice you would send your ship's papers to HMRC Salford; unfortunately they didn't return them! Possibly the RYA and the CC have amended their advice

I know of a couple of people who got caught by this but do not know the final outcome (Ships that pass in the night). This is why I first got involved with the saga and agreed a course of action, direct with HMRC Salford.

As an aide, Marina de Lagos also took up the issue with Salford so as I am not in Lagos at present, if you want advice, the Marina Director is fully up to speed.

She tried to sort it out with Portuguese Customs but they refused to discuss it with her! That is why she spoke directly to Salford. Fortunately she speaks perfect English.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, it is good to know that the RYA and CA who we pay to represent our interests provide advice on such subjects. The RYA has a whole section explaining the T2L, what it means and when it is useful to have one, plus a pack available to members with the necessary forms to apply for one from HMRC.

Equally good to know there are people on the ground who can comment on how such things work and chivvy up our representatives to take action when things change or go wrong. This forum and others is particularly useful for disseminating experience. Plus of course more useful than dry "official" sources as exchanges are often made interesting by the banter that goes with them.

 

[Heckler]

Thank you for your recognition that I am a reliable source!

Word to the wise, if you followed the original RYA advice or the Cruising Club advice you would send your ship's papers to HMRC Salford; unfortunately they didn't return them! Possibly the RYA and the CC have amended their advice

I know of a couple of people who got caught by this but do not know the final outcome (Ships that pass in the night). This is why I first got involved with the saga and agreed a course of action, direct with HMRC Salford.

As an aide, Marina de Lagos also took up the issue with Salford so as I am not in Lagos at present, if you want advice, the Marina Director is fully up to speed.

She tried to sort it out with Portuguese Customs but they refused to discuss it with her! That is why she spoke directly to Salford. Fortunately she speaks perfect English.

I was told to send copies of my docs only. I did amd it all worked

 

[nortada]

I was told to send copies of my docs only. I did amd it all worked

Good to hear. Did you get them back? Not that it is very important.

 

[GTom]

Haven't read all posts, sorry if already asked here: as I understood, to keep the vat paid status, the boat shouldn't spend B-day in the UK. What's the case if the boat is in the Channel Islands/IOM?

 

[Tony Cross]

Haven't read all posts, sorry if already asked here: as I understood, to keep the vat paid status, the boat shouldn't spend B-day in the UK. What's the case if the boat is in the Channel Islands/IOM?

AFAIK it has to be in EU waters

 

[GTom]

AFAIK it has to be in EU waters

For CI based boats doable, but what about those in the Caribbean?

 

[neil1967]

Martinique/St Maarten?

 

[GTom]

Martinique/St Maarten?

Bad news, not a single square foot of EU VAT area in the Caribbean

"Areas within the EU that are excluded
...
French Guiana
Guadeloupe
Martinique
Mayotte
Réunion
Saint Martin[
...
Areas outside of the EU that are not included
Aruba
Curaçao
Sint Maarten
Caribbean Netherlands
Anguilla
Bermuda
British Virgin Islands
Cayman Islands
Montserrat
Turks and Caicos Islands"

 

[Bilgediver]

The few numbers of leisure boats moving between States, doesn't give politicians much cause for concern but, IIRC we come under "means of transport" (or some similar name) bracket so, when road, air and sea are all lumped together, it's a massive problem.

It is not a problem commercially as although ship oil rigs etc are VAT FREE entities they bob in and out of foreign ports with minimum delays providing customs procedures are followed including the use of on board bond etc there is no problem. The problem generally comes if a vessel remains in port beyond a certain period. However thanks to the international oil industry even that is covered by nations of the world as these installations can be in foreign waters and operating vat free for years at a time. The rules might require demanding procedures but these are already in force world wide so Brexit will only add a few more countries to which these may apply.

I believe the aircraft of the world use similar procedures and operate vat free so long as they obey the rules.

 

[westernman]

It is not a problem commercially as although ship oil rigs etc are VAT FREE entities they bob in and out of foreign ports with minimum delays providing customs procedures are followed including the use of on board bond etc there is no problem. The problem generally comes if a vessel remains in port beyond a certain period. However thanks to the international oil industry even that is covered by nations of the world as these installations can be in foreign waters and operating vat free for years at a time. The rules might require demanding procedures but these are already in force world wide so Brexit will only add a few more countries to which these may apply.

I believe the aircraft of the world use similar procedures and operate vat free so long as they obey the rules.

Lewis Hamilton used a scheme to avoid paying VAT on his jet.

https://www.verdict.co.uk/lewis-hamiltons-tax-loophole/

Would such a scheme work for a yacht?

 

[Tony Cross]

Lewis Hamilton used a scheme to avoid paying VAT on his jet.

https://www.verdict.co.uk/lewis-hamiltons-tax-loophole/

Would such a scheme work for a yacht?

That article also says....

VAT rebates are a key benefit for businesses using leasing products, but the BBC programme alleged that the scheme for Hamilton did not comply with EU and UK tax rules because of the significant personal use of the plane, and that he should not have had a full VAT refund.

...so that would most likely be a no.