Afraid the horse has long since bolted ,

S

scottie

Well-Known Member
Joined
14 Nov 2001
Messages
5,510
Location
scotland
Visit site
Can we put the genie back in the bottle with engine electronics in the day as they say a diesel engine could function without electricity
but no now
any suggestions
 
Most engines are still mechanical and once started will continue to run even if they have electric fuel pumps like my new Beta. Given that you can only start them with electrical supply I really don't see an issue. Caveat is where the electronics are there to interface the mechanical controls with the electronic control panel as with small Volvos where they will continue to run even if it fails but cannot be started without bypass even if there is an electrical supply.
 
Old Lister 2 cylinder diesels could be started with a handle - but there was a knack to getting it to start and not easy! Modern diesels don't have starting handles. But I have seen spring starters but expensive from memory.
 
PetiteFleur said:
Old Lister 2 cylinder diesels could be started with a handle - but there was a knack to getting it to start and not easy! Modern diesels don't have starting handles. But I have seen spring starters but expensive from memory.
Click to expand...

The Bukh DV series of engines, still in production, have starting handles. Rather pricey these days and heavy too, though. And we could have a debate about whether they are 'modern'. 😁

I remember the sucking of teeth (including mine) when the first motorbikes that had electric starters but, unlike earlier leccy start bikes, (shock horror!) no kick-starter.
 
My Volvo 2002 on our last boat had a starting handle and I occasionally used it for starting for practice in case I ever needed it. Its replacement after a gasket failure didn’t have this facility, leaving me with the first boat I had had that I couldn’t start without a battery. Today’s set-ups, with divided battery banks do make the option for hand starting redundant, which is probably fortunate.
 
Ive started my 2qm15 by hand a couple of times. I've failed to start it by hand about a dozen times so don't bother trying anymore. I guess in an emergency I may be I little more motivated.
 
garymalmgren said:
a diesel engine could function without electricity

I have a sneaky suspicion that the OP was talking about Engine Management Systems(E.M.S.)
Those neat little black boxes fitted to Volvos and others that tend to breakdown and cost a zillion quid to replace.
Click to expand...
See post#3. AFAIK Volvo is the only small engine that uses this interface and despite a glitch about 8-10 years ago when there were manufacturing faults it has been pretty reliable. Nearly 20 years and tens of thousands of engines. The basic engine though is mechanical and once started will run without electricity just like any other mechanical diesel. It is only the start and stop from the panel that does not work when the MDI fails. There is a little yellow lever on the fuel injection pump helpfully marked STOP and the MDI can be bypassed to use the starter motor. That was a ommon mod during the period when they were dodgy. Volvo replaced all the potentially dodgy units.

Different scene though if you are talking about common rail diesels which are now creeping down the HP range (like the latest Yanmar 40hp) which really are electronic controlled like cars. No sign that any of the industrial engines (Perkins, Kubota, Mitsubishi) that other marine engines use are following that route.
 
Last edited:
I can, and have, started my BUKH engine without an electrical supply, using the starting handle.

Bit it does need an electrical supply to stop it normally, although it can be stopped by blocking the air inlet.
 
I had a Perkins 4 107 or 4108 with an hydraulic starter motor

The engine was from a road sweeper and had several hydraulic pumps to drive various attachments. A pump would pressurize an accumulator to allow subsequent starting . A hand punp was also fitted to allow initial starting if no pressure was available.
 
I don't think it will be long before small - medium sized Marine Diesel engines follow the road car evolution ... where electrical failure causes EMS to shut down and nothing then works ... not even able to manually start engine.
Example : There are DIESEL cars out there now that if Alternator fails - the car will only carry on as long as battery maintains sufficient voltage to keep EMS and systems going ... once battery is discharged - you are dead as a dodo. Some will even stop as soon as Alternator fault hits computer ...

Its coming guys and gals !!
 
Buck Turgidson said:
What is the average failure rate per running hour of modern Electronically controlled diesel engines?
Click to expand...

No idea of the figures but I expect overall they're pretty reliable. Problem as I see it is there are very few DIY fixes possible and I certainly wouldn't have a common rail diesel on any single engine boat. Wonder how one would get around trying to use domestic battery as starting backup when batteries these days have to be coded into latest common rail ecu.
 
Oh yes, a Ford Dover or Dorset, like a Lister and many others, would run if it has fuel and turns.
I was told that smaller marine diesels have no electronic management, but since about 2014 many have. A supplier told me he had a few on the shelf at that time, then it was all over.
I was offered a boat which had an engine with electric fuel lift pump, didn't fancy that. As those with a positive stop solenoid, which needed current for the engine to run (although easily bypassed)
 
The same engineer had worked at Pendennis, they had spent weeks on a new luxury motor yacht trying to get the Caterpillar engine computer to talk to the ZF gearbox computer. Caterpillar would not let any but their own engineers to do any work.
 
fisherman said:
Oh yes, a Ford Dover or Dorset, like a Lister and many others, would run if it has fuel and turns.
I was told that smaller marine diesels have no electronic management, but since about 2014 many have. A supplier told me he had a few on the shelf at that time, then it was all over.
I was offered a boat which had an engine with electric fuel lift pump, didn't fancy that. As those with a positive stop solenoid, which needed current for the engine to run (although easily bypassed)
Click to expand...

Our replacement engine came with electric pump and, being a bit suspicious, purchased a spare which hasn't been used so far, with engine now about 11 years old. Would always fit one, it makes bleeding automatic with any air in system pumped to tank via return.
 
Refueler said:
I don't think it will be long before small - medium sized Marine Diesel engines follow the road car evolution ... where electrical failure causes EMS to shut down and nothing then works ... not even able to manually start engine.
Example : There are DIESEL cars out there now that if Alternator fails - the car will only carry on as long as battery maintains sufficient voltage to keep EMS and systems going ... once battery is discharged - you are dead as a dodo. Some will even stop as soon as Alternator fault hits computer ...

Its coming guys and gals !!
Click to expand...
Not sure that is going to happen any time soon as there does not seem to be any pressure on industrial engine makers to reduce emissions. electronic control on road vehicles has been around for a long time, first on petrol engines when fuel injection replaced carbs 40 odd years ago and later on diesels primarily to increase power output while complying with emissions (and easily cheating as VW know to their cost!). Easier with road vehicles because of the need for electronics to control other functions. Likewise easy on big industrial engines for construction equipment tractors etc. Not so easy on small equipment that use low specific output engines and have little or no electrical equipment.

However electrics are creeping in like the electric lift pump on my Beta and strict controls on injection pumps as I found out last week. Slight problems with the transition from tickover to the rack moving leading to hunting and no adjustment on the pump allowed. Sealed at the Kubota factory.
 
Tranona said:
Not sure that is going to happen any time soon as there does not seem to be any pressure on industrial engine makers to reduce emissions. electronic control on road vehicles has been around for a long time, first on petrol engines when fuel injection replaced carbs 40 odd years ago and later on diesels primarily to increase power output while complying with emissions (and easily cheating as VW know to their cost!). Easier with road vehicles because of the need for electronics to control other functions. Likewise easy on big industrial engines for construction equipment tractors etc. Not so easy on small equipment that use low specific output engines and have little or no electrical equipment.

However electrics are creeping in like the electric lift pump on my Beta and strict controls on injection pumps as I found out last week. Slight problems with the transition from tickover to the rack moving leading to hunting and no adjustment on the pump allowed. Sealed at the Kubota factory.
Click to expand...

There is pressure:-
Equipment shortage revealed as new emissions rules kick in | Construction News
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top