Advice reqd. buying liveaboard in Gib.

Tranona

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There is actually a long thread running on the subject on the MOBO forum at the moment. There have been many attempts to get the information you are asking for, both on various fora and in a more formal way through a survey by the RYA a few years ago.

The general answer, unsurprisingly is in line with your experience. However, where examples have been quoted it is usually connected with boats that have a history of being kept outside the EU and it often occurs in places where there is a "border" EU/Non EU - so Gibb/Spain, Brittany/Channel Islands, Italy/Croatia, Turkey/Greece and Atlantic landfall ports such as Azores. As you will see from the MOBO thread, the issues are around "smuggling" rather than "internal" EU offences.

That is why I was suggesting that it makes sense to have the transaction in the EU if the boat already has "VAT paid Status" as if the transaction takes place outside the EU this status is lost and the boat will be liable for VAT if it ever re-enters the EU.
 

macd

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1. It's got nothing to do with papers, much less the checking of them, but with the future re-sale value of the boat and/or the VAT cost should Ricoh's plans change and he decides to permanently import it into the EU. Non-EU boats can enter and leave the EU without penalty, providing their stay is withing certain (fairly generous) limits.

2. Tranona knows his stuff on VAT. Believe what he writes.

3. We've no idea what Ricoh might buy, but the VAT bill on it could easily be £20,000, maybe double that. If Ricoh has that kind of spare cash, he's a lucky bloke.

4. If the boat is already EU VAT paid, it's a no-brainer to take it up to La Linea for the sale to preserve that status.

5. Anyone who wouldn't travel two miles for £20K, even only a potential £20K somewhere down the line, either your name's Croesus or you're beyond help.
 
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capnsensible

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Ok, got some answers.

Now this is from the Gibraltar Maritime Yearbook. Written by the local experts.

Gib is a member of the EU but not the Common Customs Tariff waters.

If the boat is vat paid in the EU to the builder, or on import to the cct, there is no sales tax to be levied on resales. So if vat has been paid already, you do not need to go the rather less than 2 miles to La Linea.

If the vessel is registered in Gib or any other non CCT port, vat may be levied if the vessel spends more than 18 months in cct waters.

So Ricoh can rest easy!

Here is a website for anyone interested:

www.formaco.gi


Hope this helps CS
 

vyv_cox

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If the boat is vat paid in the EU to the builder, or on import to the cct, there is no sales tax to be levied on resales. So if vat has been paid already, you do not need to go the rather less than 2 miles to La Linea.

Not what the website says, as far as I can understand. See under 'VAT'
3. If a vessel which is seeking a transfer of its Port of Registry from a country within the Common Customs Tariff area to Gibraltar, has already paid VAT on its purchase value, it would be important to show that the "resale" of the vessel to the name of a Gibraltar company is effected within the CCT area in order to preserve its VAT-paid status.
 

macd

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If the vessel is registered in Gib or any other non CCT port, vat may be levied if the vessel spends more than 18 months in cct waters.

So Ricoh can rest easy!

He can rest easy provided he is quite sure that:
he won't at some future stage decide to move the boat to somewhere in the EU;
or, when he comes to sell the boat, he is aware that its market value to anyone in the EU will be substantially reduced.

Quite apart from what Vyv says above.
 

Tranona

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Ok, got some answers.

Now this is from the Gibraltar Maritime Yearbook. Written by the local experts.

Gib is a member of the EU but not the Common Customs Tariff waters.

If the boat is vat paid in the EU to the builder, or on import to the cct, there is no sales tax to be levied on resales. So if vat has been paid already, you do not need to go the rather less than 2 miles to La Linea.

If the vessel is registered in Gib or any other non CCT port, vat may be levied if the vessel spends more than 18 months in cct waters.

So Ricoh can rest easy!

Here is a website for anyone interested:

www.formaco.gi


Hope this helps CS

No, it does not. It all changes if the boat changes hands outside the EU. If the person who takes it back in is the person who took it out, it is covered by returned goods relief, or possibly returning resident relief.

Therefore is somebody buys it in Gib and takes it back into the EU it is liable for VAT unless the person is a returning resident. The rules are covered in HMRC VAT Notice no8. They are complicated, particularly returned goods and it is sensible to take advice beforehand if you want to take advantage of this.

Just to twist the knife in further, if the boat changes hands outside the EU to a non EU resident, that person will almost certainly be able to use the boat in the EU under temporary import. Again the rules are complicated but workable for genuine visitors. However, if the new owner is already an EU resident he can keep the boat out of the EU, but it is again liable for VAT as soon as he brings it back.

So - back to the original observation - if the boat has VAT paid status in the EU (ie owned by a private EU resident and VAT paid) and the buyer is also EU resident, then quick trip to Spain required to complete the transaction. If the buyer does not intend to keep the boat in the EU it does not matter, but if he subsequently sells it to somebody who wants to import it, it will be liable for VAT on entry. This may (or may not) have an impact on the value of the boat.
 

capnsensible

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Well I have done my bit. I quote directly from Mr. J Stagnetto of Form-A Co. Gibraltar who is a Gibraltar tax advisor and is Gibraltarian.

To discuss further, please ring 00350 200 79959

It is not necessary to go to Spain in his opinion.....
 

Ricoh

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Please Gents forget about VAT, I dont know how everybody got involved with me having to pay VAT as I only asked about a liveaboard in Gib.

If I do buy the boat I am looking at I shall not be bringing it back to the UK nor anywhere further than La Linea as it will be a LIVEABOARD and at 2 litres per mile will not be going very far at all.

Many thanks for the advice but I think the post lost its course somewhere.

Hope to see you all in the Gib Arms by the end of the year, my round.

Ricoh.:)
 

Tranona

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Well I have done my bit. I quote directly from Mr. J Stagnetto of Form-A Co. Gibraltar who is a Gibraltar tax advisor and is Gibraltarian.

To discuss further, please ring 00350 200 79959

It is not necessary to go to Spain in his opinion.....

What you have been advised is not inconsistent with what actually happens - but it only covers particular circumstances. If a boat from outside the EU is taken into the EU by a non-resident then it is indeed allowed to stay for 18 months under the temporay import rules. However, this is not available to an EU resident.

Anyway, Ricoh says he has no intention of taking his purchase into the EU, so VAT does not concern him. It may, however, be relevant to a person that wants to buy the boat in the future as loss of its VAT paid status may substantially reduce its value to an EU buyer.
 

VADROUILLE

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I would just like to advise that living aboard is fine in spain, however you will find that if you spend more than 6 months there in any 12 month period and you are a british resident you will be liable to import tax on the boat you live on.

I was going to live in spain and then came accross this law, many people have been caught on the costas (however this tends to be the people who live on boats and run a buisness from them).

The fact is the law is there, there is no set price on the import tax allthough it seems to be around 12% of the boats value. But the value is not how you value it, its how the spanish value it. (based on age of boat i have heard)

This information was emailed to me from some spanish lawer/soliceter from this forum (cant remember his name)

You can import for free, however you then become a spanish resident. I did not do this as i have to be a british resident for work reasons.

The basics are, if you intend being a liveaboard in spain for more than 6 months in any 12 then you have to become spanish resident and you can import your boat for free.

If being a spanish resident is not conceviable then you will have to pay import tax (i stress that this is if you are "caught").

Again, many people live on there boat for more than 6 months in any 12 and dont pay tax. Im just advising that there is a law there and they can have you for it.

There is some more information in imrays pilot books for spain, (i think atlantic islands i see it in). However there input is sketchy. There is more information on the web to however i dont have the links to hand im afraid.



Hence why i now live in GIB!

P.s, just looked at atlantic islands pilot book, page 153 under spanish wealth tax.
my explanation may not be perfect and im not trying to put the frightners on anyone, but i would hate for anybody to be subject to this so called fine if they did not know about it.

P.s.s heres the link to the thread i started about this tax http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276961
 
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macd

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Vadrouille: thanks. This has often been highlighted on other threads and is by no means confined to Spain. I gather that in Spain the levy is not too onerous if one 'volunteers' to pay when one should, but that the penalties for non-payment can be heavy. Nonetheless, most liveaboards, certainly those spending just one winter in Spain, seem not to bother.

re: VAT on Ricoh's boat: I was the one who originally raised the VAT issue (which usually ends up as a can of worms, so sorry, but that's VAT for you). My main aim was simply alerting Ricoh to the fact that when/if he comes to sell the boat, maintaining any 'VAT paid' status will almost certainly enhance its value. What he makes of that, of course, is entirely up to him.
 

capnsensible

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Please Gents forget about VAT, I dont know how everybody got involved with me having to pay VAT as I only asked about a liveaboard in Gib.

If I do buy the boat I am looking at I shall not be bringing it back to the UK nor anywhere further than La Linea as it will be a LIVEABOARD and at 2 litres per mile will not be going very far at all.

Many thanks for the advice but I think the post lost its course somewhere.

Hope to see you all in the Gib Arms by the end of the year, my round.

Ricoh.:)

:D Hurrah, I was loosing my will to live. For sure see you for a wet and if you end up in La Linea I can introduce you to the delights of the Panorama Bar!!

Hope it all goes well.
 

Banjoboy

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Liveaboard in gib

On another note, or a similar one. I am wanting to leave a boat in Gib for the summer and am looking for someone to rent it as a liveaboard to cover cost of moorage. Does anyone know where I can post this to reach prospective renters?

I was thinking Capnsensible might have some good advise.
 
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