Advice PLEASE !! Being asked to leave after 17 years !!

[pandos]

Advice was requested so some of us with practical experience offered some thoughts; hardly barrack room lawyers.

Ignoring the insult, please explain the last line of your message.

No insult intended not even to barrack room lawyers giving out advice which is ballox, most is given with good intentions...

I deliberately stressed the forums rather then referring to this thread.

It is an unfortunate thing about legal advice is that sometimes you only recognise bad advice after it has all gone wrong. .the same with good advice sometimes.

But you can lessen your chance of bad advice by putting the facts to a professional lawyer and allowing him to ask questions and thereafter provide real advice.

The last line is intended to convey a warning against advice which is to do something new, so you can say a certain state of affairs exists (such as pretending his father lives elsewhere) .. When he does not actually know if this, newly created state of affairs, would be to his advantage.

I hope this clarifies things..

 

[nortada]

You're making assumptions again. The OP hasn't said the request came from the Marina. I can think of a few possible sources, but that's only my speculation, so I'll keep it to myself.

Agree but none of this adds anything to the discussions.

Broadly speaking, having requested advice, the OP has been given to options; try to resolve it informally or take legal advice.

So far as I can see, these are the only 2 possible options.

 

[nortada]

No insult intended not even to barrack room lawyers giving out advice which is ballox, most is given with good intentions...

I deliberately stressed the forums rather then referring to this thread.

It is an unfortunate thing about legal advice is that sometimes you only recognise bad advice after it has all gone wrong. .the same with good advice sometimes.

But you can lessen your chance of bad advice by putting the facts to a professional lawyer and allowing him to ask questions and thereafter provide real advice.

The last line is intended to convey a warning against advice which is to do something new, so you can say a certain state of affairs exists (such as pretending his father lives elsewhere) .. When he does not actually know if this, newly created state of affairs, would be to his advantage.

I hope this clarifies things..

Wriggle as much as you like, the term barrack room lawyer is an insult and you used it.

All are aware of the benefit of hind-sight.

Just because you employ a lawyer, it doesn’t follow you will get the best overall advice but there is more than an even chance you will harden attitudes, leading to a far less satisfactory solution.

Your last sentence is still painfully convoluted. The suggestion is not for downright deception, which in the circumstances, would be near impossible, rather to provide wriggle room to keep everybody happy.

Think this discussion has go about as far as it can so it is up to the OP to decide their course of action.

I, for one, wish him the best luck and fingers crossed for a happy outcome??

 

[Mistroma]

You're making assumptions again. The OP hasn't said the request came from the Marina. I can think of a few possible sources, but that's only my speculation, so I'll keep it to myself.

The OP may well be along to clarify the situation.

So far he has confirmed that it relates to a boat in a Kent based marina
Post #1

My father has lived on his boat within a Kent based marina​

He has also confirmed that the marina have sprung this on his father
Post #5

I am going to speak to the marina in the morning and see how it goes. I just think after all these years, they would just leave him be. Dad has never given them a single issue in all that time and to suddenly drop this on him, in the middle of COVID lockdown is appalling. I just don’t understand how they can turn a blind eye, if that’s what they have done for almost 20 years and then suddenly spring they in him. ​

He is communicating with the marina
#13

I am waiting for the marina to call me​

The marina are the ones trying to invoke the liveaboard policy.
#18

I spoke with the marina this morning and the new manager appeared to be very understanding​

...​

suddenly decide that they now want to invoke the very policy they themselves have decided to ignore​

I noticed that one other person is unclear about the situation
#35

So is it the Marina that's asking? You haven't made it clear.​

I'm personally leaning towards the marina sending the request to the OPs father. Could be jumping to a conclusion too early of course. They must have a reason for asking and the problem could go away if it is internal. It could also be prompted by something external, making it more difficult to resolve (e.g. Council, change in insurance etc.).

It seems that friendly communication has begun and the OP may be able to find out why the request appeared by just asking in a very non-threatening way. He would simply be showing normal interest and shouldn't make a big thing of his question.

 

[chriss999]

Agree but none of this adds anything to the discussions.

Broadly speaking, having requested advice, the OP has been given to options; try to resolve it informally or take legal advice.

So far as I can see, these are the only 2 possible options.

Asking for legal advice on any issue does not preclude resolving it informally. My intention was to suggest another source of information and advice.

Not to downplay any of the excellent contributions from esteemed colleagues here, but the OP just might (or might not) benefit from the advice of a lawyer on an issue concerning the legal rights of his AP.

 

[Tony Cross]

And what sort of future relationship do you think the father will have having taken legal action against the marina? As for proving a negative, surely common sense suggests that this particular negative can be easily proven by providing an alternative address?

I didn't say that he should take legal action against the marina. I said he should seek legal advice - that's entirely different.

Providing an alternative address does not prove that he has not been living in the marina, it just proves he has another address. To prove a positive you only have to find one example, to prove a negative you must eliminate every possible case.

 

[nortada]

The OP may well be along to clarify the situation.

So far he has confirmed that it relates to a boat in a Kent based marina
Post #1

My father has lived on his boat within a Kent based marina​

He has also confirmed that the marina have sprung this on his father
Post #5

I am going to speak to the marina in the morning and see how it goes. I just think after all these years, they would just leave him be. Dad has never given them a single issue in all that time and to suddenly drop this on him, in the middle of COVID lockdown is appalling. I just don’t understand how they can turn a blind eye, if that’s what they have done for almost 20 years and then suddenly spring they in him. ​

He is communicating with the marina
#13

I am waiting for the marina to call me​

The marina are the ones trying to invoke the liveaboard policy.
#18

I spoke with the marina this morning and the new manager appeared to be very understanding​

...​

suddenly decide that they now want to invoke the very policy they themselves have decided to ignore​

I noticed that one other person is unclear about the situation
#35

So is it the Marina that's asking? You haven't made it clear.​

I'm personally leaning towards the marina sending the request to the OPs father. Could be jumping to a conclusion too early of course. They must have a reason for asking and the problem could go away if it is internal. It could also be prompted by something external, making it more difficult to resolve (e.g. Council, change in insurance etc.).

It seems that friendly communication has begun and the OP may be able to find out why the request appeared by just asking in a very non-threatening way. He would simply be showing normal interest and shouldn't make a big thing of his question.

Asking for legal advice on any issue does not preclude resolving it informally. My intention was to suggest another source of information and advice.

Not to downplay any of the excellent contributions from esteemed colleagues here, but the OP just might (or might not) benefit from the advice of a lawyer on an issue concerning the legal rights of his AP.

Apologies all round.

Sorry, I was getting involve in side issues issues that have little bearing on the OP's original request.?

A New Resolution was to avoid these mindless spate - this time I failed so must try harder.?

 

[nortada]

I didn't say that he should take legal action against the marina. I said he should seek legal advice - that's entirely different.

Providing an alternative address does not prove that he has not been living in the marina, it just proves he has another address. To prove a positive you only have to find one example, to prove a negative you must eliminate every possible case.

All very true but from experience, providing an alternative address, with some proof of connection to it (utility bills, electoral roll, bank accounts, DHSS correspondence, HMRC correspondence) seems to work.

In my experience, the owners requested this for evidence they could show it to local council officials if demanded.

Another solution some employ is to make ownership over to a third party, who has a registered address (in this case the OP). The new owner then permits, unlimited access. An additional benefit, the 'new owners' name will appear on all of the correspondence; lending credibility to the 'evidence'.

In this situation it would remove the worry from his 78 year old dad and place it on the OP. Who is probably better placed to cope with it.

Additionally, this change of ownership, would demonstrate action has been taken, muddy the waters so the who issue could just go away.

 

[nortada]

Asking for legal advice on any issue does not preclude resolving it informally. My intention was to suggest another source of information and advice.

Not to downplay any of the excellent contributions from esteemed colleagues here, but the OP just might (or might not) benefit from the advice of a lawyer on an issue concerning the legal rights of his AP.

Regrettably, I fear he has no legal rights of tenure, beyond his current contract. ?

 

[pandos]

Regrettably, I fear he has no legal rights of tenure, beyond his current contract. ?

OP should ignore the above, it is a viewpoint/conclusion from someone that does not know the pertinent facts.

He should heed the good suggestions to seek legal advice, which is different from taking legal action.

And he should thread carefully until he knows where he stands from a legal and planning viewpoint in addition he should consider any accrued rights that he may have aquired under statute or otherwise.

Even if the matter is resolved for now, he should still establish what his position is so that he might better prepare should there be another bump in the road.

 

[longjohnsilver]

I do hope the op returns and let’s us know the final outcome with his discussions with the Marina manager.

 

[Sailfree]

The governments recent actions caused many tenants to not pay rent with no right for Landlord to evict.

If you are resident in a marina I expect the same rules apply and Marina (your Landlord) cannot evict you even if you do not pay your berthing fees (rent).

Possibly this in conjuction with the upcoming census may have focused some marinas minds!!

 

[Sailfree]

WRT to always getting legal advice - keep in mind barristers are wrong 50% of the time and lose the case!!

Just a thought!

Further thought. Both parties agree the terms to divorce - go to lawyer to arrange the divorce - then the legal battles begin! Lawyers make money out of disputes and it cost me a lot of money to learn that. In my case after the lawyers got a good slice of the cake the original agreed terms were acted upon. Me bitter! No

 

[PlanB]

Unless I've missed it, nobody has suggested checking what his contract with the marina states. Many prohibit liveaboards and, while blind eyes may have been turned, if for some reason the marina wants to enforce its T&Cs then I'm not sure anything other than subterfuge (ie the shore address) will work.

 

[Mistroma]

Unless I've missed it, nobody has suggested checking what his contract with the marina states. Many prohibit liveaboards and, while blind eyes may have been turned, if for some reason the marina wants to enforce its T&Cs then I'm not sure anything other than subterfuge (ie the shore address) will work.

Always best to check wrt rights. I read all the fine print on anything I sign and often come up with errors or contradictory clauses. I had the yard in Greece mark up quite a few things before I signed. They were minor points and either obvious errors or poor use of words because of their English translation.

However, I'd be surprised if OP's father's contract allowed him to live on his boat full time.

OP said:

"He has just been asked for documentation supporting the fact that he dies not ‘live on’ - which he has for years as I say."​

"The marina have been aware of this since day 1."​

It is possible that the marina don't know that his contract with them allows him to live on board and simply decided to ask for confirmation that he does not for some matter unrelated to the contract. I'm putting that in the "not all that likely" box.

 

[sailaboutvic]

This is in no way to apply to this case or the OP father ,
The problem with liveaboard is we a pain in marinas ass always some one complaint in about some thing , if it's not how slow the internet is, its the toilet are not clear enough or the washing machine not hot enough ,
A couple of years ago one couple brought a machine and plumb it on the end of the pontoon soapy water pouring into the water , another guy not been in the marina a day screw a satellite dish on the pontoon .
Can you blame marina not to want liveaboard ?
It maybe the OP father is now having a problem because some other liveaboard is kicking off .
It sad to say like others here I don't think the guy got a leg to stand on but its worth just finding out for sure where he stands legally at less then he know id the marina refuse to agree some kind of terms he can stand his ground or go quietly .
The other problem is even if he as some right at the moment, come renewal day they could just refuse to renew the contract .
I'm surprised the OP took the route to ask here for advise the best he going to get is people option and then they not all going to agree , if it was me , my first port of call would be the marina management and if no joy then legal advise although at that point one would think the marina has already taken that route and know there are in their rights .

 

[Never Grumble]

The contract I have with current marina only provides for me to store my boat there. At least that is what they told me when I asked about a rebate/concession for C-19 contract breach, despite me suggesting that other terms were implied such as me being able to visit my boat etc and they would have issues defending such. All I can really add is good luck in trying to persuade a similar organisation that you have a residential tenancy agreement with any associated legal rights.

 

[Seastoke]

Last year the bailfs came to conwy river to remove a boat on the river as it owed river dues etc , but the guy said if someone was living on the boat they were not allowed to evict them.

 

[nortada]

The governments recent actions caused many tenants to not pay rent with no right for Landlord to evict.

If you are resident in a marina I expect the same rules apply and Marina (your Landlord) cannot evict you even if you do not pay your berthing fees (rent).

Possibly this in conjuction with the upcoming census may have focused some marinas minds!!

An interesting proposition that, in line with the current Government ruling that during the pandemic tenants cannot be evicted from their home, the same could apply to liveaboards.

Unfortunately the OP’s Dad is not being evicted from his home. Rather he is being requested to make other arrangements. In the final analysis he has not been rendered homeless.

To put it unkindly, he could be invited to ‘sling his hook’ go away and take his boat with him. The last thing anybody wants.

Unfortunately the ruling that during lockdown, liveaboards, with no other abode could continue to live on their boats has brought this whole issue to the fore and made marinas aware of possible problems.

Example, in the first lockdown the Essex Police evicted liveaboards in Titchmarsh Marina, rendering them homeless. This immediately presented Tendering District Counsel with a housing problem so they ordered the police to permit liveaboards back on their boats. It doesn’t take that amount of imagination to see where this put the marina. Piggy in the middle.

For the record, my U.K. boat is not in Titchmarsh Marina but it is a very friendly marina that provides an excellent service.

Others may wish to clarify how many liveaboards there are in Titchmarsh and their current policy on liveaboards.

 

[Sailfree]

An interesting proposition that, in line with the current Government ruling that during the pandemic tenants cannot be evicted from their home, the same could apply to liveaboards.

Unfortunately the OP’s Dad is not being evicted from his home. Rather he is being requested to make other arrangements. In the final analysis he has not been rendered homeless.

To put it unkindly, he could be invited to ‘sling his hook’ go away and take his boat with him. The last thing anybody wants.

Unfortunately the ruling that during lockdown, liveaboards, with no other abode could continue to live on their boats has brought this whole issue to the fore and made marinas aware of possible problems.

Example, in the first lockdown the Essex Police evicted liveaboards in Titchmarsh Marina, rendering them homeless. This immediately presented Tendering District Counsel with a housing problem so they ordered the police to permit liveaboards back on their boats. It doesn’t take that amount of imagination to see where this put the marina. Piggy in the middle.

For the record, my U.K. boat is not in Titchmarsh Marina but it is a very friendly marina that provides an excellent service.

Others may wish to clarify how many liveaboards there are in Titchmarsh and their current policy on liveaboards.

Interesting - somehow missed that about Titchmarsh.