advice on cleaning/restoring el.toilets

[vas]

good afternoon,

as per the main rebuilt MiToS thread, I just got in my hands (so to speak) two nice, relatively filthy el.toilets in working order.
Since I'm redesigning the whole space and moving the heads from stbrd to port, I have to redo the lot, create new framework and support for them, wiring, piping, etc.

I will try as per jfm suggestion to rotate the motor assembly so that the inlet and outlet of sea water go vertical compare to the horizontal arrangement they are now and thus improve on the looks by avoiding the seawater supply from being upfront in your face, BUT I also need to do a proper clean/check on them .

Not having EVER dismantled such a filthy device, I did a search on the forum, came up with some interesting stories of blocked toilets and how to unblock them, what type of paper to use and not to use, whether one should or shouldn't use a black water tank, etc. Noone bothered to give hands on experience on dismantling and cleaning them though.
I'm not talking about getting a 10mm spanner and turn left to undo the screw I can do spanners alright, I mean more about tips on what to have available beforehand, how to clean them before opening up, what to use to soak the blades (?) or whatever is in the macerator, to avoid the stink and/or getting some form of hepatitis in the process You get the point.

I do appreciate it's not a supper time project to even think about it let alone find old photos and post them , but any hints would be much appreciated.

cheers

V.

 

[jfm]

Well actually you will be surprised how clean and not smelly they will be inside. Just like working on any normal pump. Go for it! Rubber gloves and clean hands thoroughly afterwards, of course!

Will the base unit rotate on the horizontal plane, so the pump motor sticks out to the back of the W/c not the side?

And if it wont fit when sticking out backwards, and if you can rotate the pump on the flange by 90dg, you could rotate the base 180deg so the motor is at the right not left of the WC. Then the (now vertical) inlet/outlet pipes to the pump would be moved 100mm backwards (ie looks nicer) compared with having the pump at the left of the WC, if you get my drift?

 

[vas]

Well actually you will be surprised how clean and not smelly they will be inside. Just like working on any normal pump. Go for it! Rubber gloves and clean hands thoroughly afterwards, of course!

Will the base unit rotate on the horizontal plane, so the pump motor sticks out to the back of the W/c not the side?

And if it wont fit when sticking out backwards, and if you can rotate the pump on the flange by 90dg, you could rotate the base 180deg so the motor is at the right not left of the WC. Then the (now vertical) inlet/outlet pipes to the pump would be moved 100mm backwards (ie looks nicer) compared with having the pump at the left of the WC, if you get my drift?

that was quick and excelent advice thinking out of the box mr!
Pretty sure it will rotate 90dec so that the pump faces the rear and there's plenty of space there for it
Will check tomorrow when I'm back at the boat, to be honest the toilet I used since I got the boat looks rather clean and I was worried that there is a catch somewhere and all the filth is waiting for me inside somewhere...

Will come back with photos of how I'm progressing and sometime next week will have to ask the next Q on placement of the blackwater tank (seems that I can do with a gravity emptying one and save yet another motor/macerator/impeler) not sure/happy on the placement though and got to finish the 3D model in ACAD before I post some drawings/renders...

cheers

V

 

[jfm]

Yup on all the sailboats i have rented they use gravity discharge black tanks. The pump in the WC can push the black water high enough up, usually. The downside is the tanks tend to be small, and not enough even for a day on anchorage if you have say 6 people on board (and some beer). If you put the tank in the bilge it can be 200-300 litres kinda size, ie 3 days maybe, whereas the gravity discharge tanks tend to be slim, hidden behind a panel, and 50 litres or so. you also risk more smell by having the tank behind a panel in accommodation space

If you do fit a tank in the bilges, consider using a diaphragm pump not an impeller pump. Then you don't have to stnad there for 5 minutes checking the pump doesn't run dry. Sealand do a good diaphragm pump, their T series, for this

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Will come back with photos of how I'm progressing and sometime next week will have to ask the next Q on placement of the blackwater tank (seems that I can do with a gravity emptying one and save yet another motor/macerator/impeler) not sure/happy on the placement though and got to finish the 3D model in ACAD before I post some drawings/renders...

I've never seen a gravity emptying blackwater tank on a mobo and I agree with jfm; a tank in the bilges would almost certainly give you greater capacity even though you need a pump to empty it. I fitted a blackwater system to my boat 2 yrs ago and I was advised to fit this pump http://www.depcopump.com/datasheets/G%20-%20R%20Gianneschi/eco-mv.PDF. Its not cheap but its very robust and seems to be able to run dry for extended periods. When planning a blackwater system you must use blackwater quality pipes not standard bilgewater pipes because blackwater will permeate through standard bilgewater pipes very quickly and cause odours. You should also avoid installing pipes in such a way as it causes blackwater to stagnate in low spots because this will increase permeation. Also dont forget to leave space for an anti siphon loop before the through hull outlet. More info here http://www.passagemaker.com/subscriptions/channels-e-newsletter/item/1530-avoiding-sanitation-system-woes

 

[jfm]

Those screw pumps are beautiful things mike but I think little change out of 1000 euros, eek. The Sealand one isn't as posh but is very good and there are zillions of them in service. Even Peggy Hall loves em!

Also dont forget to leave space for an anti siphon loop before the through hull outlet. More info here http://www.passagemaker.com/subscriptions/channels-e-newsletter/item/1530-avoiding-sanitation-system-woes

Each to their own but I do not use loops in this application becuase they add 4m of extra pipe = extra odour (and I have 3 tanks/pumps, =12m). I take a short pipe from the black tank straight to the keel discharge and use electric seacock (p137 current 2012 Vetus catalogue) and warning/interlock to keep the sea out of the boat

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Those screw pumps are beautiful things mike but I think little change out of 1000 euros

You're not wrong but having spent too many hours dealing with s***e problems on boats, I'm happy to spend what it takes for some peace of mind

I take a short pipe from the black tank straight to the keel discharge and use electric seacock (p137 current 2012 Vetus catalogue) and warning/interlock to keep the sea out of the boat

Nice but isn't gravity more reliable? Actually, on Ferrettis, the blackwater outlet is just above the waterline which means one less hole below the waterline and you can monitor the outflow by eye. You just have to be a bit more discrete about where you empty the holding tank!

 

[jfm]

Nice but isn't gravity more reliable? Actually, on Ferrettis, the blackwater outlet is just above the waterline which means one less hole below the waterline and you can monitor the outflow by eye. You just have to be a bit more discrete about where you empty the holding tank!

Are we at crossed purposes? I was saying dont use an anti-s loop. Nowt to do with gravity!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Are we at crossed purposes? I was saying dont use an anti-s loop. Nowt to do with gravity!

Just a throwaway remark. Anti siphon loops wouldn't work without gravity

 

[jfm]

Just a throwaway remark. Anti siphon loops wouldn't work without gravity

You've lost me on this line of discussion mike. Of course a/s loop would work without gravity.

 

[vas]

guys you confused me...

Anti-siphon loop is necessary for [please complete]

if the hole is above waterline, do I really need an anti-siphon loop???
Theoretical Q since I'm still designing the space and got to spend a day there with the laptop and digital meter to do all my measurings and add them straight away in autocad.

FWIW, had a good look around the el.toilets and all four screws are evenly placed that means that I can rotate the motor assmbly to the back with no problems. Wind was blowing (F6+) and temp was 4C so no way in hell I'd get into dismantling them outside, nor I'd do it inside, so that's going to be next week's work...

and a series of Qs,

• 
  is it OK to built a black water tank out of SS? I'm asking as I've got some oddly shaped area and none of the available tank shapes would fit in it. I can easily (and cheaply have a custom sized tank fabricated localy though.

• If I could use one, what gauge for a 200odd lt tank?

• do I HAVE to have wide and shallow sections? Will a wedge like section work or gather all the crude at the lower part and get them all nice and solid [yuk!]

weather forecast for the next 3 days is snow, NE winds and more snow, so it's design time

cheers

V.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

You've lost me on this line of discussion mike. Of course a/s loop would work without gravity.

I'm not going to get into that argument but I don't see how it can!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

if the hole is above waterline, do I really need an anti-siphon loop???

Well that depends on how far above the waterline because when the boat heels over in a rough sea, water could still enter an outlet above the waterline. Put it like this. The outlet on my boat is about 150mm above the waterline and the builders fitted an anti syphon loop. The alternative is jfm's electric sea cock as he explained

is it OK to built a black water tank out of SS? I'm asking as I've got some oddly shaped area and none of the available tank shapes would fit in it. I can easily (and cheaply have a custom sized tank fabricated localy though.
[/LIST]

• If I could use one, what gauge for a 200odd lt tank?

• do I HAVE to have wide and shallow sections? Will a wedge like section work or gather all the crude at the lower part and get them all nice and solid

• 
  
  I don't see why you can't use SS but it must be expensive? Maybe not, I dont know. You could speak to these people http://www.tek-tanks.com/boats/custom-boat-tanks/?gclid=CIGfiqrr760CFdQTfAodfSEAuQ who make custom tanks for boats out of polyethylene type materials. I don't think its a good idea to have a wedge shaped base to the tank which cannot be reached by the pick up pipe for the macerator but maybe Tek Tanks could advise Don't forget also you need a vent pipe from the top of the tank to the outside of the hull, preferably with an odour filter incorporated. The other good people to talk to in the UK are http://www.leesan.com/ who are very knowledgeable and helpful