Advice on buying a replacement boat

Yes you are correct about form stability but the AVS and ballast ratios on older boats are often so much higher they don't rely on form at all!

I am not sure how much the length is the cause for concern for his wife. (Invite for smutty comments!) Its much smoother sailing a longer boat when the waves get up especially if its longer that the pitch of the waves.

Unless you must try to race everything in sight you may do better to try and modify your sailing. Gentlemen don't beat! and reef down early. Most of us sail for pleasure therefore do it in a way thats pleasurable - take Full Circles advice and try that for a season while you consider the alternatives but be clear about the trade offs. In my case I would not get my wife to go sailing with a dark interior - now is that an advantage!!
 
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In my case I would not get my wife to go sailing with a dark interior

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She would just love the inside of our Etap! white oak and a big panoramic window! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Welcome.
You do not say where you will be sailing.
This can have a major influence on your choice of boat.
Why not do as many people suggest,charter as many boats as possible,go on as many test sails as possible ,then ask the wife which one she likes best.
 
I bet my big panoramic window is bigger than your panaramic window!!

Your post did make me chuckle!!

I promise I will look at an Etap at SIBS.

Out of curiousity do you know the AVS of your boat?
 
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Out of curiousity do you know the AVS of your boat?

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Its a 1993 boat so pre all the RCD stuff. The Etap 34s uses the same hull and that has a AVS of about 125.

Whilst I have your attention, you might be impressed to know that an Etap 32s has a higher Stix rating than a Contessa 32. (source YM)

With regard to the panoramic window, looks like tape measures at Cherbourg /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Its tape measures at dawn then!

I think the STIX ratio also includes down flooding angles and the low freeboard of a Contessa means it does not score very high on this basis.

The low freeboard does make them a wet boat but that the one in that classification of yacht was the only one of that size that did survive the '89 fastnet storm gives them a great reputation but secondhand prices often reflect this.
 
Look at the LM motorsailor range. Good to sail or motor, long keel displacement so good seaboats (you would expect that of a Scandinavian design anyway wouldn't you?) Plus the deckhouse is a really nice place for watching the waves go by and its central position & good visibility is a great antidote for those who tend to suffer from mal-de-mer.
 
OK, here's why I would spend the £65 on a CO32 like this one (hopefully she'd cost less after a bit of negotiation - but No, I don't know the owner though!):-

About the accommodation, the newer ones have a much more pleasant and wife-friendly interior than the original ones (though it looks like the 1994 yot I linked to has a mix of newer decor with some of the older layout (tighter quarter berth, layout of galley) - the new generation Contessas started from 1996. Still she looks pleasant inside in the pics).

One of the most commented features on my CO32 is how great the interior is. The wife of a Sadler 32 owner (OK, not the biggest interior around, but still) was telling him off because our CO32 interior was more spacious and pleasanter than theirs. Actually it's a bit smaller, but it had a bigger feel through nice design, effective use of space etc...

You have less wasted space down below than on an AWB - which tend to be good for ballroom dancing but not good at sea, and the new CO32 at least has excellent storage - no corner is wasted. The newer ones have a lower floor, so more headroom than on the originals. What the AWBs have inside ithat the CO32 doesn't is shower and aft cabin (though of course there's a quarter berth, which again is more spacious and comfy on the newer CO32's than the originals.

Of course, the CO32 interior is never going to compete in terms of space with the AWBs, but as a living environment for two or three people it can. For me the cosiness of the cabin is a plus - it has pretty much everything an AWB has down below, but has a more intimate "yachtie" atmosphere.

The overhead hatch in the saloon (which is optional, but I see that the one I linked to for example has it) makes an enormous difference to the sense of space and light in the saloon, so IMHO best to get one with it.

For family sailing, the boat's ideal because it is going to look after you and not scare the family. It's also fun to sail - being close to water in the cockpit and with the immediacy of a tiller, you have plenty of sense of sailing and immediacy of reaction. She can be a wet boat, but get a good sprayhood and problem solved - plus it adds to the fun of sailing - the sensation of a CO32 especially compared to an AWB is a bit closer to being in a big dinghy.

Then there's the fantastic sensation of powering to windward when it's windy leaving bigger boats wallowing like hippopotamuses in your wake - great fun!!! And pretty much every time you go into harbour there are people coming up to admire her and chat. Priceless!
 
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my wife, who is not the keenest of sailors, really is not comfortable in the boat in anything above a force 4.

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As selling a newly boat is a fairly major step to even consider, I am guessing that the above statement needs to be taken seriously.

But something makes me think that being in a Force 5 or 6 in anything will perhaps not be her first recreation of choice........and fair enough really - nothing quite as miserable as being stuck on a boat when you don't really enjoy it, let alone in sh#tty weather when you don't feel "safe" (no matter what the reality is).

Being on a heavier "better" boat will be a bit "safer" but probably won't feel much different or more pleasant to her.

Without being funny, I would suggest that you buy a vessel that you can sail alone and would be happy to do so (not always the same thing!).......so that she can pick and choose her days or even travel ahead by land / air! Having said that, to encourage her / help her pick and choose the most days I would suggest a vessel that has a pilot house / wheelhouse and has mod cons that work well in port / at anchor (Fisher 30 / 34 or a Southerly spring to mind). A crusty old boat with the OE of a bucket and a Primus Stove probably won't help.......no matter what the boat's pedigree.

I would be tempted to also suggest a Cat but the only thing I can think of (off the top of my head - is Talbot away??!!), that has a Pilot house / wheelhouse and would be within budget without looking like a floating skip would be a Catfisher, albeit the price to be paid is not sparkling cat like sailing performance.

Or as a radical idea, maybe move the Bav down to the Med?........and buy another Pandora for use at home!
 
Must agree with the previous post, but then again I am a fellow owner! However if I had the budget mentioned, I would look seriously at the Rustler. I have in front of me the details of "Whisper of Weir" as offered by Westways and lying ashore at Plymouth (see yachting press). It has few modern refinements aka: bloody silly gadgets; but appers very clean indeed and has had two owners from new - 1987. It has a tiller as God intended. Asking price £74,950. It would deliver the sort of performance you have become used to with the Pandora, and when the wind pipes up will continue to point in the right direction. Look up the Rustler 35 web site for background. Brian.
 
Lots of good advice here but before rushing out and looking for a new boat I would suggest you exhaust all the options for making sailing your Bav a more comfortable experience.

First off, most modern boats start to feel hard-pressed and uncomfortable when sailing upwind in F4+. Here in NZ the kiwis joke about us Brits being the only mad idiots to be so obsessed with sailing upwind when we don't need to. "Nothing goes to weather like a 747", they say. Plus of course mad Brits.

But anyway, if you DO find yourself in the position of having to take your boat and family upwind in fresh conditions, then it's a case of how you do it with the boat you have. Remember some much smaller and lighter boats than your Bav 32 have completed some world-girdling trips, with the right approach.

The old adage about the 20:20 rule is, in my opinion, bo!!ocks. If your boat is still standing comfortably upright with full rig in a F4 (20kts) with less than 20 degrees of heel, then more than likely she will be slug in lighter airs i.e. F2-3. Most of today's modern boats are deliberately designed to be fully powered up in 10-15kts (F3-ish). Which means you can make good progress and have a comfortable sail in light airs whilst the heavier slugs are switching on engines to keep up.

BUT, the key is that once you are fully powered up and the wind increases further, you respond accordingly. Plenty of advice here about reefing early. Fine. But one piece of advice often missing is to take a closer look at your sails and how well they perform in heavier airs.

If your sails have had a few years use they are more than likely starting to stretch. They might look fine in light airs but as the wind increases they will sag, causing more drag and generating more heel and less drive for the same wind strength. Which all points to discomfort. If your sails really are shot, then a new set will make an astonishing difference. You would probably find that for the same wind strength you will point higher and faster. And you would be able to carry the same sail area more comfortably in stronger winds i.e. reef later.

If you have roller-reefing headsail it's easy to fall into the trap of hoisting the thing at the start of the season and making it last the whole season. But regardless of how new or flash the sail, a 50% furled headsail is a shocker of a thing in a blow and a seaway, so do yourself (and your wife) a favour - if you have a large genoa on a furler and know that you are about to embark on a long uphill slog in fresh conditions, likely to need a reef, then take it off and hoist a #2 instead.

For the record, the kiwis here take a very different approach to improving the sailing performance of their boats. If they are very happy with the basic boat itself but would like to improve performance (not neceassrily for racing) they really do look at sails and rigs and foils before selling the boat. I have several friends who have put new keels, rudders and masts on their boats - and enjoyed great results for comparably little spend compared to selling and repurchasing. Obviously I'm not suggesting that in your case as it would make your Bav a non-standard version and undoubtedly reduce it's value (even if it did improve performance) due to market perception. But my point being to look at all the options (in your case sails and rig tune) before swapping out the boat - especially if your wife likes the basic design & interior.
 
The Moody is worth a look with its centre cockpit? We've chartered bigger Bavarias with in-mast reefing and found that they need plenty of sail wound in to feel comfortable in windier conditions, as others are saying. But with the right sail sizes set, everything settles down and the windows emerge etc. etc.

We have found the cockpits very exposed too, and wide to find good places to perch. A narrower center cockpit has a much safer feeling to it, higher above the waves and easier to wedge into and work in. We sail an old centre-cockpit Maxi and she feels much safer in a good breeze. Of course, most of this is how a boat feels, rather than objectivity. But my wife thinks it's dangerous when the side deck is awash and safe when it isn't, and if we're to sail together that's the rule we sail by!
 
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That'll be the no8 fencing wire. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Team New Zealand might not quite agree with you! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
As well as Vancouvers, you might want to take a look at Northshore's other boats, the Southerly range. The 115 for instance has an AVS around 150 and a modern layout / interior compared to the Classic designs you mentioned.

Marc.
 
Thanks to everyone for their contributions - all very welcome!!

Couple of additional pieces of info:

1. Sailing grounds - west coast of Scotland & N Ireland

2. Interior space less of an issues as only two of us and, as someone said, we're used to the limits of the Pandora!!

3. My wife was happy in the Pandora in a F6!!

4. One reason for getting rid of the Bav now is that the resale price seems to be falling quite quickly - thanks in no small part to the (even) lower prices of new Bavarias.
 
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I have once or twice recommended Etaps.

[/ QUOTE ]Hmmmm What about Sadlers? The 34 for example?
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