Adding a weight to mainsail head to aid dropping.

[Neeves]

Yes - Bonkers idea.

If pulling down the last metre or so is a faff, find a new pastime.

Many people try to keep weight away from the top, even middle of the mast.



Jonathan

It was not intended to be rude but a brutal fact. If it is too dangerous for you to venture to the mast to pull down 2m of sail - there is something seriously wrong. Stop being offended and face reality. If you left dropping the sail too late and it is now too dangerous to retrieve 2m - then you did not recognise that conditions were so serious - if its that bad you are in survival mode and should have seen it coming.

What are you going to do when in similar weather your furler jambs, the engine will not start or your windlass clutch slips (releasing all your rode). If you do not have simple answers - you should never have been out there.

Crawling down the deck might not be pleasant but should be perfectly safe with a harness and tether (that's why you have them - again if its not safe - then think again about your pastime as you may be a liability to others. Being sensitive is not the answer - accepting reality might be. Its a yacht, things, unexpected things - go wrong - you are the skipper - you are responsible.

Adding a kg at the top of the sail will increase how much you heel in wind and in waves - its a daft idea. You are going to test it - then test it in strong wind in seas when you have a full main up and imagine that the slugs jamb in the track (with that extra 1kg making it more dangerous for you to move up the deck to solve the issue).

But hey you are going to try it anyway - against advice from others. Brutal reality is ignored. You obviously believe, but stating the opposite, you can cope with any eventuality. Beggars belief.

Now if you exaggerated your inability - don't blame me. I just want you safe and sound. No insult intended - just that slap of reality.

Jonathan

Edit

If its any comfort.

We have a 10'6" dinghy that weighs 30kg. When I am incapable of carrying it single handed (Lift it vertical on its transom, rest the middle seat (thwart) on my shoulder, carry it across a short piece of exposed beach and carry up a ramp to a dinghy rack) in a fresh sea breeze, 35 knots - we will sell Josepheline. Its the fresh sea breeze that is the real killer. We will all have our limits, expressed or not, but when I cannot handle a dinghy single handed - in some circumstances I will be liability and I'll gracefully join the ranks of 'the old farts'. I am not willing to become a burden to someone else nor rely on others to pursue a personal passion.

each to their own

 

[bikedaft]

A downhaul really helps. Can be thin, as already said. Only one extra rope, and easy to keep out of the way, and means you can do it all from the cockpit.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

It was not intended to be rude but a brutal fact. If it is too dangerous for you to venture to the mast to pull down 2m of sail - there is something seriously wrong. Stop being offended and face reality. If you left dropping the sail too late and it is now too dangerous to retrieve 2m - then you did not recognise that conditions were so serious - if its that bad you are in survival mode and should have seen it coming.

What are you going to do when in similar weather your furler jambs, the engine will not start or your windlass clutch slips (releasing all your rode). If you do not have simple answers - you should never have been out there.

Crawling down the deck might not be pleasant but should be perfectly safe with a harness and tether (that's why you have them - again if its not safe - then think again about your pastime as you may be a liability to others. Being sensitive is not the answer - accepting reality might be. Its a yacht, things, unexpected things - go wrong - you are the skipper - you are responsible.

Adding a kg at the top of the sail will increase how much you heel in wind and in waves - its a daft idea. You are going to test it - then test it in strong wind in seas when you have a full main up and imagine that the slugs jamb in the track (with that extra 1kg making it more dangerous for you to move up the deck to solve the issue).

But hey you are going to try it anyway - against advice from others. Brutal reality is ignored. You obviously believe, but stating the opposite, you can cope with any eventuality. Beggars belief.

Now if you exaggerated your inability - don't blame me. I just want you safe and sound. No insult intended - just that slap of reality.

Jonathan

Edit

If its any comfort.

We have a 10'6" dinghy that weighs 30kg. When I am incapable of carrying it single handed (Lift it vertical on its transom, rest the middle seat (thwart) on my shoulder, carry it across a short piece of exposed beach and carry up a ramp to a dinghy rack) in a fresh sea breeze, 35 knots - we will sell Josepheline. Its the fresh sea breeze that is the real killer. We will all have our limits, expressed or not, but when I cannot handle a dinghy single handed - in some circumstances I will be liability and I'll gracefully join the ranks of 'the old farts'. I am not willing to become a burden to someone else nor rely on others to pursue a personal passion.

each to their own

Appalling . Unkind and unnecessary.

 

[Praxinoscope]

Neeves, , it’s 10 years since I last carried my tender up the slip using the technique you describe, I now admit to having resorted to a tender with transom wheels, which I drag up he slip to the dinghy park, my view is that when I can no longer drag my 35kg tender up the slip is when I have to think seriously about selling.
I have to admit I am certain that our slip is getting steeper each year.
As far as adding a weight to the head of the sail, I shudder at the thought of it, just another item to create a problem.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Having boldly proclaimed that ours descends like the proverbial whore’s drawers, in fact the top batten holds the last metre of sail up, and I have to get on the coachroof to get it out before it will pack away. A drawback of a square top main. This couple of square metres of sail does not affect the boat much, though I always do the batten before we moor up. Since we couldn't sail in highly restricted spaces with a fully battened main anyway, dropping it well in advance isn't a drawback. We just wait for calm water, rather than off Egypt Point if it’s choppy like usual. Is that beyond the scope for the OP?

 

[Boathook]

We have a 10'6" dinghy that weighs 30kg. When I am incapable of carrying it single handed (Lift it vertical on its transom, rest the middle seat (thwart) on my shoulder, carry it across a short piece of exposed beach and carry up a ramp to a dinghy rack) in a fresh sea breeze, 35 knots - we will sell Josepheline. Its the fresh sea breeze that is the real killer. We will all have our limits, expressed or not, but when I cannot handle a dinghy single handed - in some circumstances I will be liability and I'll gracefully join the ranks of 'the old farts'. I am not willing to become a burden to someone else nor rely on others to pursue a personal passion.

each to their own

Put wheels on the transom. Many types available. I can move my dinghy with outboard very easily with them.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

I suppose it depends to some extent on the size of the boat and agility of the OP anything in the order of 18 to 21 feet is going to be a bit wobbly in even a small chop and perhaps a couple of feet may make such a boat a little difficult to handle add to that someone reluctant to venture forth for any number of reasons and there is a problem in the making. If that scenario rings true then the best option would be a light downhaul or give up sailing.

 

[Stemar]

I'm at the point where I struggle to carry my inflatable, so I'm looking at alternatives, but selling the boat isn't one of them, though I did wonder if I'd have to for a while. It may be a hard dinghy with wheels that I can store in the club compound, or I may just get a cover for the flubber, which already has wheels and keep it there.

Yes what Neeves says is appalling, but it's the situation he's describing that's appalling to me. I'm totally with him that putting weight at the top of the mast is a bad idea. 99% of the time, it won't make a noticeable difference, but find yourself in that 1% and, well just look at what the French guy fount off Corsica. The weight could have ripped the sail from the mast and that could literally have been a matter of life and death.

One more little bit of string just doesn't seem to me to be enough of a complication to forego the convenience of being able to pull the sail right down and secure it from the cockpit, even if you only ever meet moderate conditions.

 

[Hoolie]

A downhaul really helps. Can be thin, as already said. Only one extra rope, and easy to keep out of the way, and means you can do it all from the cockpit.

Indeed. That's what we do and not only is it safer, it's a lot quicker too.

 

[MikeBz]

A continuous halyard/downhaul would be neat & avoid having to coil & stow the halyard, as long as you don’t mind the extra windage when the main is up.

 

[johnalison]

There is a difference between being able to go on deck when necessary and having to do it routinely. For me to go on deck in sheltered water and tidy the main is no trouble and negligible risk, but out at sea it requires me to clip on and possibly struggle against the boat’s motion. I am perfectly capable of doing this, and from time to time it becomes necessary, but for many of us it is good seamanship to arrange things to make such excursions unnecessary, and I can see why the OP wishes to improve things, even though his weight idea is a non-starter.

 

[bignick]

You should be able to tell by visual inspection what is stopping the sail coming down the last metre. Are the slugs holding the sail up, or is the stiffness of the sail stopping it? You may find it’s something as simple as the slugs twisting in the track and jamming as the last bit of the sail flakes. Can you flake it the “other way“, I.e. left right left, instead of right left right etc? .

Clean and lubricate the track first and make sure all the sliders are free to run. Much better to put the effort into getting the design intent to work, rather than putting effort into jury rigging something else that could either have unintended consequences or is something else to potentially go wrong.

 

[fredrussell]

It was not intended to be rude but a brutal fact…

I don’t want to get into an argument Neeves, but your first response WAS rude, and the one above even more so. I have no idea why you’re getting so hot under the collar.
Try and be nice eh? If it helps, imagine I’m some guy you’re chatting to at the sailing club- I very much doubt you would say to someone face to face that they should give up sailing because they have suggested a (possibly silly) labour saving thing, or would you? What I’m suggesting is not dangerous - it’s not going to endanger me or anyone else one bit. Yes, it’ll make the boat heal a tiny fraction of a degree more. Why not let me try it? For what it’s worth, my boat has a tonne of lead 2 metres below the water line - she’s stiff enough to accommodate a kilo extra 10 metres above the waterline.

 

[Neeves]

I don't believe in sugar coating the hard facts of life.

To me its not being rude but being honest in what I think.

You surely do not want me to agree that it is commendable to be scared witless about the idea of being unable to douse the last 2 metres of sail because you are unwilling to crawl to the mast, clipped on, well secured when you get there.

To ask for advice on how to achieve what the OP wants is one thing - to have people on the water unable to access the mast of their yacht - leaves me speechless. What do you all do when you need to access the bow, or the mast falls down. I find it incredible that many agree that having people worried about accessing their mast is acceptable - this in itself gets me hot and bothered.

Worse people seem to get more hot and bothered about the linguistics and their idea of politeness - and ignore the background. More worried about hurt feelings than the dangers people might pose

I might have been the only one to air my unease - but I am not alone.


Thank goodness you have the RNLI.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I've said my piece

I will not add further comment, you will be pleased to hear.

Jonathan

 

[dukeofted]

Think of the ratio of the height of your mast to the depth of your keel. For every kg you add to the top of the mast you will probably need to add 10kg to the bottom of the keel to maintain righting moment. A downhaul line seems like the most seaworthy solution if you have trouble going forward to sort it.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

Adding a kg at the top of the sail will increase how much you heel in wind and in waves...

Does it?

15m mast 1Kg moment of 150Nm, if instead stood 1.5m abeam of the mast on deck would be like having a 10L fuel tank strapped to the guardrail.
I know many who wouldn't bat an eyelid at that, but maybe I've got something horribly wrong there.

I wouldn't say that clambering around the deck is a problem, just that it'd be nice not to need to. I was also considering reducing the halyard diameter to 8mm, but not sure what load one should expect a halyard to take.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

You surely do not want me to agree that it is commendable to be scared witless about the idea of being unable to douse the last 2 metres of sail because you are unwilling to crawl to the mast, clipped on, well secured when you get there.

It's not terror, it's being able to just let the thing drop rather than clip on, crawl to the mast, clamber up the mast to drag the sail down, crawl back and then unclip.
Just a convenience, like having electric car windows rather than a windy handle.

I sail a lot with lubbers and they really get in the way of sail handling.

Think of the ratio of the height of your mast to the depth of your keel. For every kg you add to the top of the mast you will probably need to add 10kg to the bottom of the keel to maintain righting moment. A downhaul line seems like the most seaworthy solution if you have trouble going forward to sort it.

An 8mm down haul on a 15m mast would weigh 720g, your solution is 280g adrift of the OP's and has more windage, and an added risk of tangling.
Assuming 1Kg is even necessary. An extra shackle might do it.

Similarly a continuous halyard of 10mm would add a Kg plus windage, and tanglage.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

It's not terror, it's being able to just let the thing drop rather than clip on, crawl to the mast, clamber up the mast to drag the sail down, crawl back and then unclip.
Just a convenience, like having electric car windows rather than a windy handle.

I sail a lot with lubbers and they really get in the way of sail handling.


An 8mm down haul on a 15m mast would weigh 720g, your solution is 280g adrift of the OP's and has more windage, and an added risk of tangling.
Assuming 1Kg is even necessary. An extra shackle might do it.

Similarly a continuous halyard of 10mm would add a Kg plus windage, and tanglage.

I have to say I am in agreement with Neeves, the only time I have ever in my memory been on hands and knees going forward was in conditions of in excess of 35knts and large waves so under most conditions it is a walk with one hand on the cabin top rail and clipped into the Jack stays if necessary.
The down haul needs to be no where near 8mm 3 or 4 would be perfectly adequate in fact the thiner the better. The best arrangement would be two cheek blocks riveted to the boom one forward and one aft in fact you could dispense with the aft one and just have a small cleat. Run the line from the head of the sail around the block make fast once the sail is hoisted, arrange the length of line as to leave as little as possible on the cleat at this point. Drop the sail and then pull in the line which will pull down the last two troublesome meters. Make fast the excess line.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

I have to say I am in agreement with Neeves, the only time I have ever in my memory been on hands and knees going forward was in conditions of in excess of 35knts and large waves so under most conditions it is a walk with one hand on the cabin top rail and clipped into the Jack stays if necessary.

It was Neeves description that I based it on.
Lighter line will tend to tangle more as the wind will catch it.

I can see I'll have to try it and see how it works.