Malish
Well-Known Member
Best advice I had was to never fill up at a garage which had a delivery tanker in the forecourt - there is a fair chance that the delivery will have stirred up any crud present in the bottom of the garage tanks
Adding 2 oil stroke in diesel fuel
- Thread starter Nostrodamus
- Start date
Jcorstorphine
Well-Known Member
Then maybe he is a faithful believer of someone else's.
Sorry but I just don't buy it, although I am happy to buy Tesco diesel since it is my most convenient filling station and my current car has seen little else but that in just over 5 years from new since I bought it. I did have a tail light bulb go mind, maybe that was the cause!
I really don’t appreciate your sarcastic remarks and general belittling of my posting. It is not welcome and alien to the general good nature of PBO forum.
I only wished to bring to the forum that there are perhaps doubts as to what goes on within large fuel companies as a follow on from one of the postings.
Just look at the potential problems which arose by fuel companies adding biodiesel to red diesel for marine use in relation to the diesel bug. Thankfully the more enlightened marinas only sell strait diesel and not fuel with FAME added.
Robin
Well-Known Member
I am very sorry if my writing style offends, that was honestly not intended at all, maybe you missed the tongue in cheekness.
That doesn't mean that I suffer delusions mind because I prefer to think logically through a problem. Perhaps you should ask your Peugeot man to put his claim into writing so that you can then present it to the supermarkets, because if he really is correct then this is a scandal of national importance. Again sorry if that sounds sarcastic because that is how I write and it IS what I think, my opinion, which I too am entitled to.
maxi77
Well-Known Member
It is also equally worth remembering that one of the supermarkets sued a petrol major because it's advertising bad mouthed supermarket fuel, and won by proving their stuff was just the same as the heavily advertised brand. Another fuel company had to withdraw it's suer fuel because it damaged engines. So perhaps big brand fuels are no better than than the cheapos anyway. Also many boats in euroland run on road deisel without apparent problems, so perhaps the need to avoid FAME is another myth.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
So does mine, even though I don't add anything to it.
Javelin
Well-Known Member
Had a chat with a colleague who knows far more than me about this.
In summary it appears to be intensely regional, depending on which of the 11 or so UK refineries supply your area.
I'm told base spirit is the same and that it is this that is tested to meet National specifications.
However at the refinery there are numerous delivery points supplying the different retail fuel suppliers, irrespective of who actually owns and operates the refinery.
It is at the delivery point holding tanks that the various additives are added to the base spirit.
The additives vary in recipe and the big brands are very secretive about the exact make up of their particular blend.
Apparently all fuels are given additives, it's just that some additives are better than others.
I was also told that some regional refineries have been supplying a more bio based spirit which is butanised to raise its octane but is sold as non-bio based during high demand periods.
So it appears it's far more complex a story than I had first thought.
In summary it appears to be intensely regional, depending on which of the 11 or so UK refineries supply your area.
I'm told base spirit is the same and that it is this that is tested to meet National specifications.
However at the refinery there are numerous delivery points supplying the different retail fuel suppliers, irrespective of who actually owns and operates the refinery.
It is at the delivery point holding tanks that the various additives are added to the base spirit.
The additives vary in recipe and the big brands are very secretive about the exact make up of their particular blend.
Apparently all fuels are given additives, it's just that some additives are better than others.
I was also told that some regional refineries have been supplying a more bio based spirit which is butanised to raise its octane but is sold as non-bio based during high demand periods.
So it appears it's far more complex a story than I had first thought.
Nostrodamus
Well-Known Member
Thank you for some wonderful replies although it didn't really answer the question.
When it comes to the fuel companies the diesel they make will usually be aimed towards the car industry and on the whole most diesel cars are far newer than 10 years old.
Most boat engines were designed 20 or more years ago to run on the diesel they had available at the time which had higher sulphur content. I am not exactly sure what the higher sulphur content did but we are all aware it now may be easier to catch diesel bug from biofuels.
I know some marinas add a biocide to their tanks to help prevent diesel bug.
If the manufacturing companies were doing everything possible this would be put in by them.
Should we add anything else to the fuel to help our older engines? I don't know.
Why don't cars seem to have the same problems with fuel even though boats have more fuel filters?.. again I don't know but the debate has been an interesting one and will no doubt go on.
When it comes to the fuel companies the diesel they make will usually be aimed towards the car industry and on the whole most diesel cars are far newer than 10 years old.
Most boat engines were designed 20 or more years ago to run on the diesel they had available at the time which had higher sulphur content. I am not exactly sure what the higher sulphur content did but we are all aware it now may be easier to catch diesel bug from biofuels.
I know some marinas add a biocide to their tanks to help prevent diesel bug.
If the manufacturing companies were doing everything possible this would be put in by them.
Should we add anything else to the fuel to help our older engines? I don't know.
Why don't cars seem to have the same problems with fuel even though boats have more fuel filters?.. again I don't know but the debate has been an interesting one and will no doubt go on.
bignick
Well-Known Member
Diesel fuel acts as a lubricant itself. This is the reason that modern high pressure diesel injectors in common-rail engines do not need lubricating, and exactly the same reason that if you fill up one of these modern engines with petrol you can damage these injectors (sometimes) which can be horrendously expensive to repair. (Equally you can get away with it if you're lucky!)
I can't see that it would be necessary to add extra lubrication to a crudely made marine diesel (in comparison to modern automotive engines) to prevent wear as otherwise the motor manufacturers would have to address the above problem. And yes, these engines were all developed with the intent to be used with low sulphur fuels.
On the flip side, one of the beauties of these same marine diesels is that they will run on all sorts of lower-grade diesel fuels, and adding a bit of oil shouldn't really do any harm apart from making them a bit smokier.
I can't see that it would be necessary to add extra lubrication to a crudely made marine diesel (in comparison to modern automotive engines) to prevent wear as otherwise the motor manufacturers would have to address the above problem. And yes, these engines were all developed with the intent to be used with low sulphur fuels.
On the flip side, one of the beauties of these same marine diesels is that they will run on all sorts of lower-grade diesel fuels, and adding a bit of oil shouldn't really do any harm apart from making them a bit smokier.
CAPTAIN FANTASTIC
Well-Known Member
The Diesel is not consistent throughout the world, however Diesel engines are, for example a Volvo marine engine will run on diesel from UK then fill in Spain and could then fill up in Barbados. Engines will tolerate a very wide range of diesel varieties.
Adding in Diesel fuel a bit of petrol to thin it so it will flow better at extremely low temperatures (arctic conditions), or adding a bit of oil (for some reasons that I do not understand why people doing it ) to make it thicker; it will not make any difference what so ever, unless you add and dilute the diesel too much. Are we concerned about the level of lubrication that the diesel will provide inside the cylinder?; or whether the diesel needs to lubricate the pump prior to entering the cylinders?. It does not matter how we looking at the issue, the diesel engine will not get affected one way or the other.
If the diesel is too oily, the engine will smoke more and it will have carbon deposits more and may cause problems with the injectors. However, all Diesel engines will run happily for ever on either diesel oil as thin as paraffin and as thick as sunflower oil.
One thing for sure, it is good to change the engine oil often, as the high compression causes the fuel to pass through the cylinder and over time will dilute the engine oil which in turn will cause problems.
grumpygit
Well-Known Member
In the now distant days when I was in business of auto electrical and engine management diagnostics, there was a lot of problems arose when the low sulphur diesel fuel was introduced.
I remember sometime ago, Bosch (of which we where a service agent for) sending a circular out regarding the low sulphur fuels and the warranty or more to the point the lack of a warranty to some of their rotary pumps that were failing because of the lack of lubrication in these new fuels. Most low or high pressure rotary pumps rely on the fuel to lubricate it unlike the older in-line pumps.
A diesel engine will run on paraffin/kerosene but this carries no lubricants of any significance to lubricate the pump and will inevitably destroy the pump.
A diesel engine will also run on sunflower/rape oil but this will have to go through a heat exchanger first to thin, so the engine has to run on diesel from cold with a changeover of a manual or electronic device to do this.
Neither of the above imo would conducive for me. Speak to engine re builder or diesel shop engineer and they will give you plenty of horror stories about the problems using the above.
I cannot say if two stroke oil is a merit to the longtivity of the engine or it's diesel system but there is plenty additives out there on the market, with one of the largest leaders in the trade with it's products was Forte,
As for our Peugeot friends, I love'em! If it wasn't for the French vehicles I would have been a lot poorer man it business.
____________________________________________________________
Jcorstorphine
Well-Known Member
Problems gone!
All is forgiven especially as I filled up with £60 of Shell V-Power (used to be called Optimax) at £1.48 per litre (ouch) and went for a 100 mile round trip to give it a try. Result.
Stalling gone.
Misfiring gone
Faltering when accelerating gone
Now, this is just one day and the faults are intermittent but I tried everything I could to get the engine to misbehave such as stopping to let it cool down (guaranteed to stall after that) drove in 1st gear at 1200 rpm and then hit the accelerator pedal, no problem. Drove in cruise control at 40 mph and blipped the cruise control up 5 mph, no problem.
Basically, I am a happier but poorer man however the car is still going in to have the fuel regulator valve changed (under warranty) as this was seen as the culprit by Peugeot. Could be that the shell fuel has helped the fuel regulator valve to operate better. Could it be the fuel has better lubricity due to additives which brings us back to the OPs original question about 2 stroke oil
My problem with modern common rail engines is that they are impossible to work on which I find hard to accept keeping in mind I have worked on diesels over the years from Volvo 2 cylinder donkers through Ford and BMC to RR/Perkins V12 engines. As has been said, these older engines will run on anything including old socks but I think that the modern generation of engines are more “choosey”
When this tank of liquid gold has been drained, then we will fill up with standard Shell which at one of our garages, is the same price as the supermarket for about 2 day a week, howver the tank may take a while to drain as we returened about 7 MPG better than usual.
All is forgiven especially as I filled up with £60 of Shell V-Power (used to be called Optimax) at £1.48 per litre (ouch) and went for a 100 mile round trip to give it a try. Result.
Stalling gone.
Misfiring gone
Faltering when accelerating gone
Now, this is just one day and the faults are intermittent but I tried everything I could to get the engine to misbehave such as stopping to let it cool down (guaranteed to stall after that) drove in 1st gear at 1200 rpm and then hit the accelerator pedal, no problem. Drove in cruise control at 40 mph and blipped the cruise control up 5 mph, no problem.
Basically, I am a happier but poorer man however the car is still going in to have the fuel regulator valve changed (under warranty) as this was seen as the culprit by Peugeot. Could be that the shell fuel has helped the fuel regulator valve to operate better. Could it be the fuel has better lubricity due to additives which brings us back to the OPs original question about 2 stroke oil
My problem with modern common rail engines is that they are impossible to work on which I find hard to accept keeping in mind I have worked on diesels over the years from Volvo 2 cylinder donkers through Ford and BMC to RR/Perkins V12 engines. As has been said, these older engines will run on anything including old socks but I think that the modern generation of engines are more “choosey”
When this tank of liquid gold has been drained, then we will fill up with standard Shell which at one of our garages, is the same price as the supermarket for about 2 day a week, howver the tank may take a while to drain as we returened about 7 MPG better than usual.
Robin
Well-Known Member
Interesting, as I spoke with number one son who aside from boats drives fuel tankers for a living. He said he sees the diesel tankers filling up every day pretty well and the Shell tankers are the exact same ones as contracted to deliver to Tescos he thought from memory, and I think he said the tanker company was Hoyer. He did say that he thought the 'super' type diesel grades were from different tanks however so I guess that is why your diesel was £1.48 and I just filled up at Tesco for £1.38, less of course the extra 10p/lt from the coupons. Perhaps Peugeot should pay the extra premium!
If you want to buy a decent car mind, we are off to the USA as soon as the house sells, and our Hyundai Santa Fe 2.2 Diesel Auto will be for sale and runs great on the cheap stuff!
If you want to buy a decent car mind, we are off to the USA as soon as the house sells, and our Hyundai Santa Fe 2.2 Diesel Auto will be for sale and runs great on the cheap stuff!
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Yes, a real pain is that.
Surely that will make your price per mile lower than the "cheaper" fuel?
Jcorstorphine
Well-Known Member
MPG?
Sounds a nice vehicle but will it give me 64 MPG while touring the”English” bases for Weapons of Mass Destruction in the Gareloch, Loch Long and over the hills to the Glen Douglas Bomb storage depot and then back to Glasgow
SNP Joke.
Sounds a nice vehicle but will it give me 64 MPG while touring the”English” bases for Weapons of Mass Destruction in the Gareloch, Loch Long and over the hills to the Glen Douglas Bomb storage depot and then back to Glasgow
SNP Joke.
Robin
Well-Known Member
Sounds a nice vehicle but will it give me 64 MPG while touring the”English” bases for Weapons of Mass Destruction in the Gareloch, Loch Long and over the hills to the Glen Douglas Bomb storage depot and then back to Glasgow
SNP Joke.
It's a 4x4 and will give you 40mpg, but still do it in one of your summer snowstorms!
brianhumber
Well-Known Member
Had similar problem with my Hdi, now 60,000 miles. Dealer took it in and I expected the worst. On collection was told no charge sir, we did a software download.
Replacment P hire car had low fuel and was recommended to top up at Sainsbury down the road. I suspect ( being an ex seven sister engineer) the supermarket fuel complies with BS EN standards and no more, if you want additives then use oil company fuel. I find oil company fuel tends give more MPG when I use it.
I always use the cheapest fuel I can get if possible, but dose the fuel with cetane enhancer before MOT particulate tests and have had no failures even with original nonserviced injectors 200,000 miles old on my previous 306 and 407s
Brian
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Sainsbury sued one of the majors, Shell I think over advertising that suggested you didn't get all the goodies in supermarket fuel, and won handsomely. Various independant tests have shown little benefit from premium fuels, and I have never seen enough benefit to support the premium.
For many years I was a salesman, and some customers bought the discount others bought the snake oil, how much of the additives is but snake oil?
Nostrodamus
Well-Known Member
Not bad really. 57 replies and I am still none the wiser when it comes to my original question.
Having said that I have enjoyed reading the replies and have learnt quiet a bit about other things.
I still doubt that fuel manufactures spent millions on research to help older engines. You could say the same with oil manufactures. They spent millions developing super oils and synthetics that last and last but put them in an older boat engine and it can destroy them pretty quickly. In engines like mine the older natural oils work.
What is going to happen to older engines with the new low sulphur fuel. I guess we are going to find out pretty soon now the new season is nearly here.
Once again, thank you for all your replies.
Having said that I have enjoyed reading the replies and have learnt quiet a bit about other things.
I still doubt that fuel manufactures spent millions on research to help older engines. You could say the same with oil manufactures. They spent millions developing super oils and synthetics that last and last but put them in an older boat engine and it can destroy them pretty quickly. In engines like mine the older natural oils work.
What is going to happen to older engines with the new low sulphur fuel. I guess we are going to find out pretty soon now the new season is nearly here.
Once again, thank you for all your replies.
andrewbarker
Well-Known Member
FWIW -
Shell do use separate tanks for storage at Avonmouth - they don't use the same tanks as supermarket fuels.
In my experience supermarket diesel drives OK, but it will knacker your EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) valve by about 100K miles, whereas Vpower (or BP ultimate) will keep it nice & clean indefinitely. Vpower gives me +4.2 mpg.
And yes, I've used acetone in Ford Dover engines (3.5% mpg gain), but a fag to source & store the acetone (it works by weakening the molecular & cellular structure of the diesel so it burns better)
And the best diesel fuel additive for power/smoothness/no smoke/lubricating pumps/economy etc is Millers PowerPlus.
But if anyone thinks that no additives make any difference - that's absolutely fine by me. I wasn't bothered much myself until fuel costs went through the roof.
Shell do use separate tanks for storage at Avonmouth - they don't use the same tanks as supermarket fuels.
In my experience supermarket diesel drives OK, but it will knacker your EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) valve by about 100K miles, whereas Vpower (or BP ultimate) will keep it nice & clean indefinitely. Vpower gives me +4.2 mpg.
And yes, I've used acetone in Ford Dover engines (3.5% mpg gain), but a fag to source & store the acetone (it works by weakening the molecular & cellular structure of the diesel so it burns better)
And the best diesel fuel additive for power/smoothness/no smoke/lubricating pumps/economy etc is Millers PowerPlus.
But if anyone thinks that no additives make any difference - that's absolutely fine by me. I wasn't bothered much myself until fuel costs went through the roof.
ffiill
Well-Known Member
Guess most people dont know as they drive along the "Bonny Bonny Banks of Loch Lomond "there is a big enough Nuclear Arsenal in Glen Douglas probably to knock the earth out of orbit-thats everything naval ever produced from Polaris warheads through to Trident.Sounds a nice vehicle but will it give me 64 MPG while touring the”English” bases for Weapons of Mass Destruction in the Gareloch, Loch Long and over the hills to the Glen Douglas Bomb storage depot and then back to Glasgow
SNP Joke.
One of the few places in the UK that is defended like something in a James Bond movie!
The railway to Fort William passes the entrance to Glen Douglas just before it reaches Arrochar on Loch Long.
Anyway why worry about car engines and diesel-those beasties-Trident subs were forever breaking down and having to be tugged back up to Faslane after drifting around aimlessly near Little Cumbrae!
Used to be a days entertainment watching them from our kitchen window on Canada Hill, Bute.
Finally a funny story compliments of Strathclyde University-their Naval Architecture dept et al received an officially anonomous request to design a door capable of withstanding a 40 foot Tsunami as well as amazing pressures and heat!-thats right you drive over the top of Trident subs if you take the road from Loch Lomond to Faslane-built origionally by the MOD as a private route to Faslane.
I am told there are other Sub Pens here and there but they are not exactly advertised.
