fireball
Well-Known Member
Fair weather - arm chair ... yer right ...
Account of recent Hanse 371 sinking
- Thread starter Spyro
- Start date
Das_Boot
Well-Known Member
Maybe they could have put a bung in it.
Graham_Wright
Well-Known Member
Isn't this a good reason to arrange a watertight bulkhead around the steering flat?
My rudder stock is supported at the skeg and also prevented from dropping by the quadrant and autopilot tiller above the tube.
The whole assembly lies behind a short bulkhead well above the waterline.
My theory is that if it all falls off, the influx of water will be manageable.
Or am I being naive?
My rudder stock is supported at the skeg and also prevented from dropping by the quadrant and autopilot tiller above the tube.
The whole assembly lies behind a short bulkhead well above the waterline.
My theory is that if it all falls off, the influx of water will be manageable.
Or am I being naive?
pandos
Well-Known Member
re the liferaft.
It was hired, does anybody know from where?
I bought a raft last year that was supposedly new but I became suspicous because it appeared to have been serviced. I opened it and found that it was just bundled in a bit of plastic and string instead of the proper vacum bags. I had it serviced this year by a different firm. I am still considering legal action against the first supplier.
I must say that the raft probably would have worked last year but if it had gone unserviced for a few years it would have been worthless.
tony
It was hired, does anybody know from where?
I bought a raft last year that was supposedly new but I became suspicous because it appeared to have been serviced. I opened it and found that it was just bundled in a bit of plastic and string instead of the proper vacum bags. I had it serviced this year by a different firm. I am still considering legal action against the first supplier.
I must say that the raft probably would have worked last year but if it had gone unserviced for a few years it would have been worthless.
tony
Wayward_Son
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
OK - Hands up on which of the above have ever had the experience of a sinking?
... to see so many so called 'experienced sailors' come up with such sanctimonious judgements when they were definately not there, and have possibly never had to manage the same situation - is really very sad.
Regards
JOHN
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I was going to let this drop off the page but my hand is up to your question. It was in april of this year. As interesting a story as it is, I'll spare you the details. We worked very hard maintaining the rule - more or the same amount of water going out as is coming in. Bottom line is, if you can save the boat you save the crew.
OK - Hands up on which of the above have ever had the experience of a sinking?
... to see so many so called 'experienced sailors' come up with such sanctimonious judgements when they were definately not there, and have possibly never had to manage the same situation - is really very sad.
Regards
JOHN
[/ QUOTE ]
Sorry, I was going to let this drop off the page but my hand is up to your question. It was in april of this year. As interesting a story as it is, I'll spare you the details. We worked very hard maintaining the rule - more or the same amount of water going out as is coming in. Bottom line is, if you can save the boat you save the crew.
ashanta
Well-Known Member
I agree, two seasons ago i asked the boat yard to make an access panel in my cockpit sole for this very reason.
Regards.
peter.
Regards.
peter.
ashanta
Well-Known Member
I haven't made made refernce to the rescue or the actions of the crew during the sinking. We are all human and behave differently in certain circumstances. i'm ex soldier, very fit and active and sail mainly single handed. I know how I behave in a crisis as I've been in many.
My point was regarding the logic of sailing with main only in a following sea. I feel that you under estimate the pressures put on the rudder in a moderate seaway under this sail plan. The boat will always want head up, to the point that I feel this boat broached and the rudder failed as consequence. This is purely IMHO and as SHS I have to consider these matters when I'm sailing because if I have problem, I'm on my own.
I often hear people say that they don't like going to the mast or bows in bad weather and leave the sails as they are due to their fear. Sadly this lack of motivation means that most times they take the easy route by using their roller reefing to shorten sail and end up changing the underwater asymetrics and create an imminent broach.
There is also a lack of training in this area. Many people go to eveming classes and get theory qualifications but often they do not have the practical experience of heavy weather sailing.
Regards.
Peter.
My point was regarding the logic of sailing with main only in a following sea. I feel that you under estimate the pressures put on the rudder in a moderate seaway under this sail plan. The boat will always want head up, to the point that I feel this boat broached and the rudder failed as consequence. This is purely IMHO and as SHS I have to consider these matters when I'm sailing because if I have problem, I'm on my own.
I often hear people say that they don't like going to the mast or bows in bad weather and leave the sails as they are due to their fear. Sadly this lack of motivation means that most times they take the easy route by using their roller reefing to shorten sail and end up changing the underwater asymetrics and create an imminent broach.
There is also a lack of training in this area. Many people go to eveming classes and get theory qualifications but often they do not have the practical experience of heavy weather sailing.
Regards.
Peter.
Micky
Well-Known Member
IMHO i think the skipper did well, and carried out everything he did in a cool and professional way, saving his crew was priority. You can replace a boat, but never a life.
Anyone can sit back and make remarks as to what they would have done, or not done, but when, and if it happens, probably the first thing most people would do is crap their pants.
Half the bods i see in boats have a problem with berthing in a marina, just imagine them trying to save a crew or boat about to sink.
Being on board a sinking boat is something most people will never experience, and unfortunately many that have are no longer with us to tell the tale.
In this case it was a storey with a happy ending, far too many end up the opposite.
I pat the guy on the back for his actions...Well done mate.
Anyone can sit back and make remarks as to what they would have done, or not done, but when, and if it happens, probably the first thing most people would do is crap their pants.
Half the bods i see in boats have a problem with berthing in a marina, just imagine them trying to save a crew or boat about to sink.
Being on board a sinking boat is something most people will never experience, and unfortunately many that have are no longer with us to tell the tale.
In this case it was a storey with a happy ending, far too many end up the opposite.
I pat the guy on the back for his actions...Well done mate.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
All too often we are given limited or incorrect facts in a report of an incident. Yesterday I posted a link to the account of a couple in the pacific where the woman sewed up a split in the husband's heard "with her sewing kit" and I commented on doing an ocean passage without basic medical equipment. A few minutes later our man Down Under replied to say that in their local news it said they used up their entire supply of sterilized sutures.
It is of course in the nature of people to make judgements on the basis of incomplete evidence. Who hasn't read a partial account of a court case and decided a defendant is guilty (or not)?
Isn't this debate just like those cases where experts spend days in court deciding whether someone did the right thing in a split second decision?
I think we're right to dissect the case and debate what actions could or should be taken because that may help someone in a similar situation in future. Apportioning blame or starting fights does no one any good.
Re whether to send out a radio call, be aware that it will result in action, that may be a lot more than the situation demands. I once sent a panpan and, despite my insistence that help was not required, they sent a lifeboat which spent 5 hours escorting us into harbour.
It is of course in the nature of people to make judgements on the basis of incomplete evidence. Who hasn't read a partial account of a court case and decided a defendant is guilty (or not)?
Isn't this debate just like those cases where experts spend days in court deciding whether someone did the right thing in a split second decision?
I think we're right to dissect the case and debate what actions could or should be taken because that may help someone in a similar situation in future. Apportioning blame or starting fights does no one any good.
Re whether to send out a radio call, be aware that it will result in action, that may be a lot more than the situation demands. I once sent a panpan and, despite my insistence that help was not required, they sent a lifeboat which spent 5 hours escorting us into harbour.
izewbik
Member
The publicity of this accident and dissection in this forum will no doubt persuade fellow sailors to give safety a higher priority for a while. There but for the grace of god go I.
Smoke alarms have become commonplace in the domestic situation and the advice is that they save lives.
How succesful are bilge alarms at giving that vital early warning and how commonly are they fitted to production boats ?
Smoke alarms have become commonplace in the domestic situation and the advice is that they save lives.
How succesful are bilge alarms at giving that vital early warning and how commonly are they fitted to production boats ?
Heckler
Well-Known Member
Re: Hanse 371 - Sail plan, Water Inrush, Stock Failure
the suction off the engine water intake idea is set up on my boat, piece of pipe ready under the engine to fix and suck!!
stu
the suction off the engine water intake idea is set up on my boat, piece of pipe ready under the engine to fix and suck!!
stu
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Re: Hanse 371 - Sail plan, Water Inrush, Stock Failure
Interesting idea. Have you tried it to see how much water it sucks? I'd be lucky to draw a gallon a minute with mine.
Interesting idea. Have you tried it to see how much water it sucks? I'd be lucky to draw a gallon a minute with mine.
webcraft
Well-Known Member
Re: Suck it and see
Ditto . . .
A frightened man with an eggcup would be more use than my engine salt water pump.
A hose down the toilet would work though. Stick one end in the bowl, other end in the bilge and pump away - instant emergency bilge pump.
This is irrelevant to the thread though. If you weren't there then I feel that you should not be criticising the skipper - particularly when he may not be aware of the discussion and therefore is unable to exercise his right to reply.
200gpm is far too much for any normal bilge pump to cope with. The only thing they could possibly have tried was getting a sail or something similar under the hull to slow the water inrush down. Maybe they didn't think of it, but maybe there were other circumstances we know nothing about. In any event, the crew were all safe and dry - and for this congratulations are in order.
Re. the Mayday - the CG and the lifeboat would FAR rather you overreacted than left it too late. The point about rising water and electrics was well made.
As for all you keyboard critics - may all your sinkings be hypothetical!
- Nick
Ditto . . .
A frightened man with an eggcup would be more use than my engine salt water pump.
A hose down the toilet would work though. Stick one end in the bowl, other end in the bilge and pump away - instant emergency bilge pump.
This is irrelevant to the thread though. If you weren't there then I feel that you should not be criticising the skipper - particularly when he may not be aware of the discussion and therefore is unable to exercise his right to reply.
200gpm is far too much for any normal bilge pump to cope with. The only thing they could possibly have tried was getting a sail or something similar under the hull to slow the water inrush down. Maybe they didn't think of it, but maybe there were other circumstances we know nothing about. In any event, the crew were all safe and dry - and for this congratulations are in order.
Re. the Mayday - the CG and the lifeboat would FAR rather you overreacted than left it too late. The point about rising water and electrics was well made.
As for all you keyboard critics - may all your sinkings be hypothetical!
- Nick
Spyro
Well-Known Member
Interesting point many have made about insurance, How would an insurance company look at such an event if no attempt was made to plug a hole or slow the intake of water?
boomerangben
Well-Known Member
First of all, thankyou to whoever it was who posted the link. It gives us all the ability to learn from others misfortunes and we will all be wiser should something similar happen to us.
Secondly, the Mayday was the right call. You hear a bang "like a pistol shot" then you are going to have some form of MAJOR structural damage. Loosing steering is akin to loosing control. A mayday call will get things moving in your direction. We would much rather get turned back than spend all afternoon searching for bodies.
What would have happened if they weren't sailing in company? Given the situation, the Skipper did the right thing. Get people off and keep them out of the water. If they were alone, then they would have had to try to prevent the sinking.
Finally and this is by far the most serious - how is that a 4 year old boat looses its rudder? I hope they find the remains of the foil because it seems to me that there is a design or build issue. If I owned a Hanse (or indeed any other mass produced boat), I would want some very good answers to one or two very searching questions.
Secondly, the Mayday was the right call. You hear a bang "like a pistol shot" then you are going to have some form of MAJOR structural damage. Loosing steering is akin to loosing control. A mayday call will get things moving in your direction. We would much rather get turned back than spend all afternoon searching for bodies.
What would have happened if they weren't sailing in company? Given the situation, the Skipper did the right thing. Get people off and keep them out of the water. If they were alone, then they would have had to try to prevent the sinking.
Finally and this is by far the most serious - how is that a 4 year old boat looses its rudder? I hope they find the remains of the foil because it seems to me that there is a design or build issue. If I owned a Hanse (or indeed any other mass produced boat), I would want some very good answers to one or two very searching questions.
Bergman
Well-Known Member
Interesting theory about broach, that would certainly be likely in that configuration, but I still don't think it should create enough force to cause catastrophic damage to the rudder.
If every boat that broached were to sink there would be very few sailors.
Must admit that I am no devotee of the fore deck two step myself, but not too bad going to the mast to pop a reef in, no pride necessary, if its really nasty - crawl.
Just goes to show the wisdom of the old advice to reef early.
If every boat that broached were to sink there would be very few sailors.
Must admit that I am no devotee of the fore deck two step myself, but not too bad going to the mast to pop a reef in, no pride necessary, if its really nasty - crawl.
Just goes to show the wisdom of the old advice to reef early.
izewbik
Member
An interesting article.
http://www.oceanmarineservices.com/why_do_boats_sink.htm
The table of water flows through different size holes is helpful. Clearly prevention s better than cure and the question has to be how fruitful is it likely to be attempting to remove by hand the consequences of anything other than a minmal leak. An awful lot of people in circumstances much better controlled than in a boat at sea do their best to defend their homes against floodwater with limited success. How helpful is it to create the impression that almost any leak can be dealt with ?
Early warning of a even a small leak is in my opinion the most important ingredient for succesfully finding it whilst the inflow is still visible rather than beneath six inches of moving water.
http://www.oceanmarineservices.com/why_do_boats_sink.htm
The table of water flows through different size holes is helpful. Clearly prevention s better than cure and the question has to be how fruitful is it likely to be attempting to remove by hand the consequences of anything other than a minmal leak. An awful lot of people in circumstances much better controlled than in a boat at sea do their best to defend their homes against floodwater with limited success. How helpful is it to create the impression that almost any leak can be dealt with ?
Early warning of a even a small leak is in my opinion the most important ingredient for succesfully finding it whilst the inflow is still visible rather than beneath six inches of moving water.
chrisb
Well-Known Member
YM did a test on 3 rafts before xmas -one failed to inflate. i think it was z-----. i raised it several times on scuttle but and even initiated a poll [which had very few opinions expressed] now this one.i guessed we were not very interested. someone is going to drown through a non inflating life raft - but then i guess we will never hear aboat it.
YM were supposed to follow ther tests up bu i suppose loss of advertising ?
YM were supposed to follow ther tests up bu i suppose loss of advertising ?
Juggler7823
Well-Known Member
Re: Hanse 371 - Sail plan, Water Inrush, Stock Failure
Most water pumps for engines up to about 30HP are specified to give 1gall per min at idling revs and not much more at higher. Its limited by the small diameter pipes. it would not cope with a big hole in the hull which would allow possibly a few hundred gall/min to ingress. High volume bilge pumps are always supplied with at least 38mm hose.
Most water pumps for engines up to about 30HP are specified to give 1gall per min at idling revs and not much more at higher. Its limited by the small diameter pipes. it would not cope with a big hole in the hull which would allow possibly a few hundred gall/min to ingress. High volume bilge pumps are always supplied with at least 38mm hose.
