Access to Marinas during Covid 19 restrictions

[JumbleDuck]

We have a simple plan now, it has to be simple to work but that still doesn’t stop scores of posts about how people can interpret or amend the plan so then can do things to suit themselves without thinking through the consequences.

Quite the contrary. Most of the posts I see are from people carefully considering the consequences while interpreting the rules and guidelines.

 

[Trident]

Do you place yourself in the category to which you refer ?

I see myself as of no benefit to society really but as a high tax payer, employer of others, consumer and having served in the forces for several years I suppose that the powers that be would count me as being a benefit to society

 

[rszemeti]

They are inviting you to renew your contract . You could give up your mooring and owe nothing.
You could remove your boat from the harbour - assuming it is ashore within the harbour boundary - and owe no fees.

My boat is not within the harbour, an is on the hard in a private yard. I fully expect to eb getting an extra bill from them for storage where it lies. Other harbours in the area have held off from asking for mooring fees, and I understand one has even issued refunds to those that had paid in advance!

 

[shaunksb]

Quite the contrary. Most of the posts I see are from people carefully considering the consequences while interpreting the rules and guidelines.

I don’t think the rules need much interpretation unless it’s your sole intention to bend them.

Can you give me a typical example?

__________________

 

[Momac]

My boat is not within the harbour, an is on the hard in a private yard. I fully expect to eb getting an extra bill from them for storage where it lies.

Then simply let the harbour office know you don't wish to renew your contract .

 

[ip485]

There’s no need for Parliament to be recalled as the lock down powers are all contained in a Statutory Instrument (SI) (that you can see here The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020) which can be amended by ministers if they so choose to do so. The power to do this was included in the Emergency Powers act. Don’t forget that the current government has a large majority so the chances of any changes actually being kicked out, if Parliament were recalled, are vanishingly small.

Hmm, well that is the end of our democratic process then, much as was predicted in the Times today.

I was interested to hear from Rick Stein today, who has faced criticism for furlonging his staff. He said, I have no customers, none, no income and I think it was 600 staff. I cant pay them - simple - it is not that I dont want to - I cant.

The Government money will not be in any business Bank accounts before the beginning of July is my guess.

I can see the same scenario with marinas, golf courses, holiday parks, all these places that rely on a stream of income. It will be interesting what their customers do. I was talking (on the 'phone) to a golfer today - he said the course is closed - riduculous. They expect us to go on paying. If I could, I wouldnt. What do they expect, they are not providing me with a service, any more than Rick. Does Rick show me a lovely plate of fish on You Tube and say now send me some money because I need your support to keep going. I dont think so.

I suspect a lot of people will simpy not be able to pay their marina fees, and of those that can, will not. Those that cant be bothered to come forward and make some sensible to proposals to their customers dont deserve to be paid.

Sensible workabe measures are required urgently to allow some activities to continue in a way this preserve social distancing as soon as possible. The two (social distancing and such activities) are NOT mutually excluded (as some seem to believe) and are not sustainable for any length of time, so the soomer we face reality the more likely we will not be faced with even more businesses going bust.

As to Hancock, I have come to the conclusion that those in the Government who are claiming he has become the archetype Grand Stand artist - have got it about right. I am afraid he comes across as very light weight, unable to stay on a consistent message, and unable to preserve the diginity of being honest with the public. It is a terrible performance, and the sooner Borris is back on his feet, at least the sooner we might have a chance of a message that can be promulgated with the semberlance of creditability.

 

[FlyingGoose]

Do you think it is Just about your freedoms of exercise,
1. the law has allowed demonstrations and public gatherings and protest to be abandoned
2, It allows one doctor instead of 2 doctors to section someone with a mental health problem The new law extends time limits on detaining people in a mental health setting
3. It allows the state to take your child out of the home and isolate them without any family member
4.UK’s Coronavirus Act, which becomes law today, has serious implications for the rights of people with disabilities and older people, and its implementation needs to be carefully monitored to protect people’s rights to health care, education, and freedom,
5.The weakened detention safeguards are likely to disproportionately impact people from Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic (BAME) communities.
6.The emergency law also relaxes the rules and standards for social care services and supports, essentially suspending the Care Act 2014 duties in England to assess and arrange services to meet the needs of adults with disabilities and their careers.

There is more but these are some of the worst, so I appreciate most on here might not fall into this category so is is ok to say stuff them I am ok Jack or having people like me who has an IQ above 1 who can write letters , demand action and force policy change for those less fortunate
States can take extraordinary measures to limit some rights in the name of public health and emergencies threatening the life of a nation. But such measures need to be strictly necessary and proportionate to meet the situation, and at no times should be arbitrary or discriminatory. The fundamental rights of detainees should also always be protected even in emergencies.

What the Coronavirus Bill will do
UK: COVID-19 Law Puts Rights of People with Disabilities at Risk

 

[Momac]

I suspect a lot of people will simpy not be able to pay their marina fees, and of those that can, will not. Those that cant be bothered to come forward and make some sensible to proposals to their customers dont deserve to be paid.

The restaurant analogy doesn't quite work when talking about marinas .
If the boat is still moored in the marina you are receiving most of the service they provide.
If people cant pay they will have to take the boat away from the marina - or sell the boat via the marina brokerage .

 

[ip485]

The restaurant analogy doesn't quite work when talking about marinas .
If the boat is still moored in the marina you are receiving most of the service they provide.
If people cant pay they will have to take the boat away from the marina - or sell the boat via the marina brokerage .

I agree, there are differences.

However, we shall have to see. I suspect there are going to be an lot of people who wont (cant) pay. If removal of the boat / the charges are enforced by some marinas, and not others, that will be an interesting business model. If people are forced to pay, the Courts may also find themselves quite busy, considering whether or not the action of the marinas, was legal. I dont mean now, but I mean in weeks to come, unless a sensible solution can be found. I suspect that is just the reality - but then again, I could be wrong.

 

[jordanbasset]

It will be the same situation for people who have caravans in caravan parks, except there is a lot more of them. Like marinas, they are operating under instructions from the Government, I cannot see courts finding against them

 

[Old Harry]

It will be the same situation for people who have caravans in caravan parks, except there is a lot more of them. Like marinas, they are operating under instructions from the Government, I cannot see courts finding against them

Static van owners will find it hard with the onerous contract terms Park owners implement

 

[jordanbasset]

Static van owners will find it hard with the onerous contract terms Park owners implement

Well yes they would have no chance as I suspect the marina dwellers will also have little chance of winning any case against the marinas who were following Government advice

 

[Graham376]

I agree, there are differences.

However, we shall have to see. I suspect there are going to be an lot of people who wont (cant) pay. If removal of the boat / the charges are enforced by some marinas, and not others, that will be an interesting business model. If people are forced to pay, the Courts may also find themselves quite busy, considering whether or not the action of the marinas, was legal. I dont mean now, but I mean in weeks to come, unless a sensible solution can be found. I suspect that is just the reality - but then again, I could be wrong.

My own thoughts are that if a boat is in a marina berth and staff are keeping an eye on it then the owner has to pay. Many marinas are in a group and have lots of legal staff who I suspect will be pretty quick to take action through the courts which, in the end, is likely to be far more costly to the boat owner than paying the bill.

 

[Bru]

Hmm, well that is the end of our democratic process then, much as was predicted in the Times today..

You are obviously unaware that for decades most primary legislation has, at heart, been about transferring power from Parliament to Government

Act after Act after Act has enabled Ministers of State to make Orders in Council - to effectively write new laws - which are however usually subject to review by (usually) the relevant Parliamentary committee (often after the fact)

This has been going on quietly for forty years or more but only now, when we're faced with a genuine national crisis, do people get concerned about it!

 

[ip485]

You are obviously unaware that for decades most primary legislation has, at heart, been about transferring power from Parliament to Government

Act after Act after Act has enabled Ministers of State to make Orders in Council - to effectively write new laws - which are however usually subject to review by (usually) the relevant Parliamentary committee (often after the fact)

This has been going on quietly for forty years or more but only now, when we're faced with a genuine national crisis, do people get concerned about it!

I am aware.

I would recommend some WikI research as a good starting point to understand the limitations and the frequency with which Prerogative Orders in Council are passed. Suffice to say so far as primary legislation is concerned, you are wrong in your assertion.

If you support the breakdown of our democratic process then that is your preroagtive. I dont, so it is another matter on which we shall have to disagree, but it is well worth making sure you have a grasp of the overall concepts before jumping to ill informed conclusions unless you really do have a technical understanding of the subject material. If you do, I would be most interested if you would like to explain to the forum how it would work in the instance we are discussing, as I for one will having much to learn.

My own thoughts are that if a boat is in a marina berth and staff are keeping an eye on it then the owner has to pay. Many marinas are in a group and have lots of legal staff who I suspect will be pretty quick to take action through the courts which, in the end, is likely to be far more costly to the boat owner than paying the bill.

Agreed. They continue to perform a function IF assuming there isnt evidence they are not doing this job properly.

However, many marinas have already indicated that fees will be reduced. This sets an important commercial precedent (note as I am sure you will commercial, not legal). They may also be benefitting from some considerable savings in running their operations. I appreciate there are a raft of standing costs.

I have no doubt they may be pretty quick to action - well perhaps some. I also have no doubt that there are some owners who are considerably more wealthy than most of the marina companies, and who will equally not hesitate to prosecute their case if they believe they have a sound case. It should not be forgotten than unlike certain areas of commerce, these businesses are dealing with some very high net worth individuals who will not think twice if their solicitors so indicate, and some who will do so on principle, regardless. £20K or £30K in berthing fees is enough to get even these customers interested. We shall see.

 

[Graham376]

high net worth individuals who will not think twice if their solicitors so indicate,

Solicitors, the guys who still get paid regardless of win ore lose

 

[PaulRainbow]

My boat is in a marina. I pay them for a berth there, which i still have. Staff are still onsite to maintain security and they routinely wander the pontoons to keep an eye on the boats. They would, if asked, carry out any reasonable additional checks etc. They normally offer toilet facilities, which i can't use, becasue i can't travel to the marina, no fault of the marina. They have a pub/restaurant, a laundry, lift out services and a workshop etc. All of those require me to pay addition fees, should i wish to use them. Again, i can't see how i can use any of those, because a) they are all closed because they are legally required to be and b) i couldn't go and use them, even if they were open.

I cannot see any grounds to withhold my mooring fees or to expect any form of discount.

 

[FlyingGoose]

My boat is in a marina. I pay them for a berth there, which i still have. Staff are still onsite to maintain security and they routinely wander the pontoons to keep an eye on the boats. They would, if asked, carry out any reasonable additional checks etc. They normally offer toilet facilities, which i can't use, becasue i can't travel to the marina, no fault of the marina. They have a pub/restaurant, a laundry, lift out services and a workshop etc. All of those require me to pay addition fees, should i wish to use them. Again, i can't see how i can use any of those, because a) they are all closed because they are legally required to be and b) i couldn't go and use them, even if they were open.

I cannot see any grounds to withhold my mooring fees or to expect any form of discount.

So why are some marinas offering discounts for April as a good will gesture or they know a storm is coming, and as we are the consumer we can walk away.
It seems some marinas are offering a discount because they know they are not offering the full service they will have minimal staff working , some boats are all over the place where they should be and therefore not the owners fault, they cannot go into the water and sail off somewhere else , so for a marina to charge those people a different rate or to accommodate them, what about the berth holders the ones all year round paying top prices , who cannot get to their boats ,
I would also think these marinas have access to Government help
If my marina charges me full rate for April I leave easy

 

[rszemeti]

Then simply let the harbour office know you don't wish to renew your contract .

I don't feel I need to do so, as it is they who are at the moment in breach. I shall wait a while, I suspect as the other harbours and similar authorities in the area are adopting a more relaxed position, it is only a matter of time before a different approach is taken.

 

[PaulRainbow]

So why are some marinas offering discounts for April as a good will gesture or they know a storm is coming, and as we are the consumer we can walk away.
It seems some marinas are offering a discount because they know they are not offering the full service they will have minimal staff working , some boats are all over the place where they should be and therefore not the owners fault, they cannot go into the water and sail off somewhere else , so for a marina to charge those people a different rate or to accommodate them, what about the berth holders the ones all year round paying top prices , who cannot get to their boats ,
I would also think these marinas have access to Government help
If my marina charges me full rate for April I leave easy

On what basis do you think you are entitled to a reduced rate for April ?