Abandon my liferaft?

[toad_oftoadhall]

That is an interesting one as despite the fears and the reports of containers falling off ships there are very few reliably recorded incidents of yachts hitting them. YM ran a feature on the issue a few years ago and found the same.

I've never seen a credible photo of partially submerged container at sea or heard a credible first hand account. In these days of digital cameras you'd think there would be plenty of both if there were any numbers of floating containers around.

Against that Curtis Ebbesmeyer reckons they're around and he ought to know. (Although now I think about it he hasn't seen one either.)

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

You don't need to "think" - you have to read the MAIB and Irish equivalent reports.

I've read exactly the same reports as you following a previous disccusion of this topic.

On the basis of that I stand by my words. Yachts typically do not sink in extreme conditions. Most of as aren't even out in extreme conditions very often (ever?)!

 

[Seajet]

I agree completely re. getting into trouble in 'good' conditions, when most of us are a lot more likely to be out !

In my own case I suppose the closest I've got so far was having the flexible gas hose on my cooker split; at the time we were off the Eddystone in a F6 in autumn, got away with simply turning off the gas and using an extinguisher but we had no raft or ready dinghy and would probably have not survived in just lifejackets if it had come to that.

I've never seen a container in the oggin, but the pictures one sees of ships with lots of them going over the side make my toes curl, why on earth don't such ship operators get fined within an inch of their lives ?!

I have seen a few large tree trunks and a big heavy wooden open boat floating just under the surface in mid-Channel though.

I know someone who prepared his Anderson 22 for the Jester with a watertight compartment forward, it stikes me this ought to be more common, not difficult to incorporate at the design stage; though of course it would go against the 'boat show boat' image where everything's open plan and Ikea-like, with no regard for function !

One thing I have learned; last year I helped refloat and recover an Anderson which had been sunk by a stupidly laid mooring sinker with a large eye sticking up; it was a real team effort just to recover the boat a few hundred yards to shore using a workboat and 4 very large buoyancy bags lashed around her, the A22 was almost completely underwater and towing her was, err, interesting.

Like others, I'd sometimes thought about inflating the dinghy inside the cabin to save the boat if holed; I can now say unequivocally ' forget it, you need more buoyancy than that, use the dinghy to save yourselves !'...

 

[Madhatter]

I've never seen a credible photo of partially submerged container at sea or heard a credible first hand account. In these days of digital cameras you'd think there would be plenty of both if there were any numbers of floating containers around.

Against that Curtis Ebbesmeyer reckons they're around and he ought to know. (Although now I think about it he hasn't seen one either.)

There was a photo of one on here last year (I think )

 

[snooks]

Is that the best reply you can think of?

No, but I didn't want to waste time pointing out, what had already been pointed out....That you too should have read the OP's post in full, including the part where they mentioned sailing to France, before accusing me of not reading it.

 

[snooks]

I've never seen a credible photo of partially submerged container at sea or heard a credible first hand account. In these days of digital cameras you'd think there would be plenty of both if there were any numbers of floating containers around.

This one was floating around off Les Sables D'Olonne around the time of the last Vendee finish

 

[Seajet]

This one was floating around off Les Sables D'Olonne around the time of the last Vendee finish

Snooks,

do you know what happened to that container by any chance ?

In a perfect world it would be nice to think the military would deal with such things, either by using them for target practice or towing / handling such things away from dangerous positions; in the meantime some sort of light beacon would be great, but attaching it would be too dangerous...maybe a magnet & line ? Then who pays for and supplies it ???

I remember when that container ship piled up on the Devon coast there were Notices To Mariners saying 'beware lots of containers in sea' which didn't really seem sufficient action to me, in such a busy area.

Another example, though I doubt very much I could find the photo's now; one windy day one of our Test Pilots, who himself owned a 33' fishing boat in Brighton, was testing a Sea Harrier and used the recce' camera to film a ship well off Shoreham with her deck cargo of very large planks going over the side, they were all around in the sea; any one of those could spoil a yachts' day, or cancel it entirely.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

This one was floating around off Les Sables D'Olonne around the time of the last Vendee finish

Thanks Snooks. That one's nailed then.

 

[Tranona]

I've read exactly the same reports as you following a previous disccusion of this topic.

On the basis of that I stand by my words. Yachts typically do not sink in extreme conditions. Most of as aren't even out in extreme conditions very often (ever?)!

Well, I can think of at least 5. The extreme conditions may then lead to other things such as grounding on sandbanks or hitting the shore - two of those in the last 12 months or so, although neither with loss of life. The hull may survive extreme conditions - that is not sink, but may cease to be usable or the crew washed overboard or trapped underneath.

The whole stability issue in modern times stems from lives lost when a Benny foundered in heavy seas in the Bay of Biscay. More recently another Benny also on the west French coast, and yet another in the Needles Channel. Then a Westerly Konsort run aground in a gale. Will leave you to find the individual cases.

The point you are making is correct - few yachtsmen are out in extreme conditions, but many of the cases of foundering (like those above) and use of liferafts are in extreme weather conditions. The celebrated Liquid Vortex incident could so easily have been one of these (like its sister ship the previous year) but for the efforts of the rescue services.

It is not always possible to identify a single major cause of an incident where deployment of a liferaft did actually occur, or might have done, but the three issues of weather, structural failure and collision cover just about all of the reported incidents - but as I said some have multiple causes.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The point you are making is correct

I know!

 

[Seajet]

Tranona,

"It is not always possible to identify a single major cause of an incident where deployment of a liferaft did actually occur, or might have done, but the three issues of weather, structural failure and collision cover just about all of the reported incidents - but as I said some have multiple causes"

I'd think fire a very worthwhile consideration as well, even if no reported incidents.

It does usually take two or more factors to cause any sort of major accident though, I suspect 'sailing to, or being late for, a schedule' is pretty well up there as a root cause of many woes.

 

[westernman]

It does usually take two or more factors to cause any sort of major accident though, I suspect 'sailing to, or being late for, a schedule' is pretty well up there as a root cause of many woes.

I think you are very right there.
It also applies to the Condor incident as well.

 

[Seajet]

michaelchapman,

don't get me started on the Condor - oh, I have...

Years ago I was stuck in St Peter Port due to fog, and decided the only way my fiancee was going to see St Malo that year was by ferry.

We found ourselves on the hydrofoil going at what must have been flat out or close to it ( when one thinks about it, a major drawback with hydrofoils is that they can't really go slowly ), in thick fog weaving between yachts as they apeared at the last minute, just like a high stakes game of 'space invaders'.

When we got off I had a good look at the radar kit, thinking they must have something special to do that; nope, bog standard as one saw nailed to the top of fishing boats...

As the poor blokes on the fishing boat discovered, Condor seem to behave the same way with their modern boats.

I avoid fog like the plague and have radar because of it, if caught in bad vis I'd at least have a half inflated dinghy on deck ( though I do anyway across the Channel ) or quite possibly fully inflate & tow the thing.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

No, but I didn't want to waste time pointing out, what had already been pointed out....That you too should have read the OP's post in full, including the part where they mentioned sailing to France, before accusing me of not reading it.

I had read the OP, and was referring to the detail of where they have done all their sailing to date, I passed no comment on any other cruising ground. If you'd read my post rather than replying with a snide "" you would have realised that (perhaps).

 

[PhilS]

Many thanks to all for your comments.
The liferaft has gone from the top of the boat and I will start the season without one. I can't see how to put it on the pushpit and it is too big and heavy for a locker.
However, if I can bring myself to spend the money I will buy a Plastimo Cruiser 4 in a valise to keep in a cockpit locker before going to France. This will be an amazing 15Kg lighter that what I had previously and significantly improve the chance of it being successfully launched.
I take your points about thinking though about what to do in the case of different mishaps and going on a survival course. I have enjoyed the courses I have done in the past and this one sounds fun.

PS. Anyone want to make me an offer for a 20 year old Plastimo Offshore 4, last serviced in 2008?

 

[Tranona]

I'd think fire a very worthwhile consideration as well, even if no reported incidents.

There are plenty of reported fire incidents - just not at sea. This does refer mainly to incidents that result in loss of life or vessel, and no doubt there are "minor" fire incidents at sea that are dealt with by the crew. Fire does not appear in the RNLI statistics either.

The multiple causes would be something like Hot Liquid where adverse weather resulted in the boat running aground. Another really good examples of "things going wrong" resulting in the crew abandoning ship is the Maxiyacht Creightons Naturally. Extreme weather, technical problems, bad decisions and poorly functioning kit all played their part, but it was the weather that started the problems.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

The multiple causes would be something like Hot Liquid where adverse weather resulted in the boat running aground. Another really good examples of "things going wrong" resulting in the crew abandoning ship is the Maxiyacht Creightons Naturally. Extreme weather, technical problems, bad decisions and poorly functioning kit all played their part, but it was the weather that started the problems.

Creightons Naturally [1] didn't sink, and Creightons Naturally's life rafts behaved very poorly indeed.

When you say Hot Liquid I assume you mean Liquid Fusion or Liquid Vortex and neither of those used a liferaft in their incidents.

[1] I had a friend on CN on that trip.

 

[Tranona]

Creightons Naturally [1] didn't sink, and Creightons Naturally's life rafts behaved very poorly indeed.

When you say Hot Liquid I assume you mean Liquid Fusion or Liquid Vortex and neither of those used a liferaft in their incidents.

[1] I had a friend on CN on that trip.

I know it did not sink, but liferafts were deployed, and as you say did not perform well. You can construct fine divisions to suit arguments, and if you draw the line at actually sinking, you exclude almost all incidents where liferafts are deployed or deployment might have made a difference to the outcome.

That is why the image often presented of crew stepping off a slowly sinking yacht into the security of a liferaft is so far from reality. Often the decision to abandon the yacht is taken by others, not necessarily the crew, and there are also many examples of the opposite, that is taking to rafts when it would have been better to stay with the ship. Easy comment to make after the event particularly if you were not there.

The Hot Liquid boats are an illustration of the impact of extreme weather, and but for the external interventions were of a nature that taking to the liferaft would have been likely. There are probably many incidents in our coastal waters that could escalate into survival situations, but do not because of the prompt action of the rescue services, but they never really get recorded other than a statistic with little supporting background.

Having read the reports you will know how difficult it is to put them into clear categories, partly because the number is so small and partly because each is almost unique. So the best you can do is to draw out some common themes as I did earlier, and to which you might add a couple of others, particularly the importance of communication and the generally less than satisfactory performance of certain types of equipment.

 

[[70521]]

After much consideration we don't carry one, we sail around the south coast, solent and across to france. All fairly busy shipping areas and felt that should the worst happen providing we had time to get a DSC mayday out and we were all waring life jackets our chances were pretty good.

Can I recommend that you sail three miles offshore then jump in the water and see how you feel after an hour bobbing about in a lifejacket. I suspect you will be asking to get back on board.

 

[Sybarite]

My liferaft is old and in the way (on the deck too close to the main sheet). I sail on the east coast in and out of the rivers on a 10 year old Bavaria 34, although I might venture to France soon. I need to replace my liferaft and find somewhere better to keep it of get rid of it. Does anyone have any figures on how often liferafts get used? Is there one case a year when it has been useful close to the UK coast or a 100? At the moment I feel the liferaft is a liability as I am more likely to fall overboard dealing with the main-sheet wrapping round it than I am being saved by it.

Let's face it; insurance is a real waste of money too.