Abandon my liferaft?

[Seajet]

I've crossed the Channel many times too, as it happens never with a liferaft but usually a half inflated dinghy on deck if my boat.

I'd think a dinghy equipped with inflation bottles, carried on deck for cross-Channel, would be a good compromise.

The thing which probably got the crew of Ouzo was that they weren't expecting to be run down in good vis; maybe a lr with hydrostatic release - or even towing an inflatable ( something I'm very much against ) with a painter point designed to part rather than drag it under might have saved them, we'll never know.

 

[lw395]

I've crossed the Channel many times too, as it happens never with a liferaft but usually a half inflated dinghy on deck if my boat.

I'd think a dinghy equipped with inflation bottles, carried on deck for cross-Channel, would be a good compromise.

The thing which probably got the crew of Ouzo was that they weren't expecting to be run down in good vis; maybe a lr with hydrostatic release - or even towing an inflatable ( something I'm very much against ) with a painter point designed to part rather than drag it under might have saved them, we'll never know.

I agree the things you suggest might have saved them, but whatever you have, rafts, dinghies, epirbs, you name it, once you've been hit hard by a ship at night you are unlikely to survive IMHO. The reality of getting to, and into a raft or dinghy after a direct hit by a ferry at 20+ knots is not good.
We are talking about something which came without warning, not even time to let off flares IIRC. I suppose a slim chance is better than no chance, but I think that all it is.
Dinghies on deck have to be well secured. It was too windy/rough for towing a dinghy I believe.

Other scenarios, like sailing in fog, you can be prepared.

 

[Burnham Bob]

I have a liferaft in the confident expectation that I will never need it. As a great believer in sods law however, I know that if I didn't have it..........

To be serious, it's a lot to pay for peace of mind but it's worth it. and mine fits on the pushpit fine although that's getting crowded with the horseshoe lifebuoy, the outboard and space needed for a danbuoy.

 

[Tranona]

I've crossed the Channel many times too, as it happens never with a liferaft but usually a half inflated dinghy on deck if my boat.

I'd think a dinghy equipped with inflation bottles, carried on deck for cross-Channel, would be a good compromise.

The thing which probably got the crew of Ouzo was that they weren't expecting to be run down in good vis; maybe a lr with hydrostatic release - or even towing an inflatable ( something I'm very much against ) with a painter point designed to part rather than drag it under might have saved them, we'll never know.

Such things were popular for a while - when liferafts were expensive. However, they were never really practical and were effectively outlawed when they could not be called liferafts, and rafts themselves tumbled in price.

Never been convinced of the half inlated dinghy idea. Just read what it is like when a liferaft is needed and imagine how a half inflated, or even fully inflated dinghy would have coped. Even liferafts are not always up to coping with extreme conditions, and if conditions are not extreme a yacht is a much better survival vehicle than a flimsy dinghy.

 

[Ludd]

I have a liferaft in the confident expectation that I will never need it. As a great believer in sods law however, I know that if I didn't have it..........

To be serious, it's a lot to pay for peace of mind but it's worth it. and mine fits on the pushpit fine although that's getting crowded with the horseshoe lifebuoy, the outboard and space needed for a danbuoy.

but ,of course,you DO keep the portside pushpit clear to facilitate helicopter rescue------

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Just read what it is like when a liferaft is needed and imagine how a half inflated, or even fully inflated dinghy would have coped. Even liferafts are not always up to coping with extreme conditions, and if conditions are not extreme a yacht is a much better survival vehicle than a flimsy dinghy.

I'm not convinced that yachts typically sink in extreme conditions.

I think it's usually collision, fire or structural failure and often in very benign conditions.

 

[lw395]

I'm not convinced that yachts typically sink in extreme conditions.

I think it's usually collision, fire or structural failure and often in very benign conditions.

+1.

 

[Seajet]

Tranona,

I think you misunderstand me.

I'm saying that as liferafts are difficult to stow, and I reckon still rather an expensive item especially when considering servicing, a dinghy with inflation kit would be an acceptable compromise for the average coastal sailing or Channel crossing in good weather.

I agree sinkings are rare, but this thread is about getting off the boat for whatever reason and what one uses, a raft or not.

I am aware how difficult it would be to continue inflating a half-ready dinghy if ending up in the water, hopefully one would have time to completely inflate before taking to it but it would at least be something to hang onto and maybe more visible to rescuers, and it may be possible to get enough air into it, especially say to support an injured or weaker crew member.

I was given a 1 man liferaft from an ejection seat, and sometimes carry it with the idea it's again something to hang onto or help someone who's hurt or struggling; or we arm wrestle for it !

I read a lot of books and have spent plenty of time in the water in various scenarios, and am under no illusions about liferafts of any type being wonderful things...

 

[FWB]

It's not just sinkings, boats can catch fire.
Provided the life raft survives the fire, it's some where to go rather than just jumping overboard.

 

[lw395]

Tranona,
...

I am aware how difficult it would be to continue inflating a half-ready dinghy if ending up in the water, hopefully one would have time to completely inflate before taking to it but it would at least be something to hang onto and maybe more visible to rescuers, and it may be possible to get enough air into it, especially say to support an injured or weaker crew member.


...

Actually it's fairly easy to get it roughly inflated by mouth. Not quick, but not difficult either. I speak from experience! I'm not going into details, but we were young and the cider was stronger than we thought.

 

[johnalison]

It is really only in the last ten-fifteen years that family yachts have carried liferafts regularly, since less expensive versions have come out and boats have got much larger and better able to store them. I don't think that those of us who used to ply our trade around Channel and North Sea waters were being irresponsible, any more than that we sailed often without radar, electronic position-fixing, VHF and other safety items which are now commonplace.

It simply is not ethical to advise anyone to set forth without everything necessary for their survival, and if compromises are to be made, then it is their responsibility. If I were the OP, I would sell the liferaft; save on triennial servicing and if I wanted to do an offshore cruise, hire a liferaft in a valise.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

These facts?

Wahkuna lost in the (middle) English channel sailing from France to the UK, ship hit them, took to their liferaft, yacht sunk.

Ouzo sunk off the IOW, Tulia sunk on the way front the east coast to Holland, the crew of both yachts were sadly found dead.

Would the crews of Ouzo and Tulia still be here if they had a liferaft on board?

I don't know.....but the MAIB said a liferaft would have been the best means of improving survivability of the Ouzo crew.

If it's on a hydrostatic release it would also give any emergency services a bigger target to look for! should the worst happen.

Snooks - read the OP - it said East Coast rivers. So far no one has proved me wrong - I stated there had not been a last resort liferaft deployment in those waters - citing Ouzo is completely irrelevant, they didn't have a liferaft, and I know for a fact that they weren't on the East Coast! Then the plot thickens, so far we have four reported cases in the whole UK waters for leisure craft. Measured against the countless thousands of leisure craft journeys in any one year let alone the last 20 years, four last resort deployments are so statistically insignificant as to be almost unmeasurable. But again I don't think you read my actual post - despite there being no chance of the OP ever using a liferaft I completely agree with the idea of carrying one. None of us will ever use our liferaft but I understand why we carry them. Pound for pound it's the best security blanket I carry

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Snooks - read the OP - it said East Coast rivers.

...and X-Channel to France.

I thought you might have missed that bit.

I still think your overall point is valid.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

...and X-Channel to France.

I thought you might have missed that bit.

I still think your overall point is valid.

We are splitting hairs, they asked about the waters they have sailed, they've never been across the channel - I take your point and we agree with each other

 

[snooks]

...and X-Channel to France.

I thought you might have missed that bit.

 

[Rivers & creeks]

Is that the best reply you can think of?

 

[Tranona]

I'm not convinced that yachts typically sink in extreme conditions.

I think it's usually collision, fire or structural failure and often in very benign conditions.

You don't need to "think" - you have to read the MAIB and Irish equivalent reports. You won't find any due to fire (although there has been a recent one but not yet reported), but you will find plenty of the other 3 as main causes.

 

[Tranona]

Tranona,

I think you misunderstand me.

No, I don't think I am misunderstanding you. At one time I would have been saying exactly the same thing - until I got involved in survival type activities (from the sidelines!) including doing the survival course. But more importantly reading just about all the published reports of yachts foundering over the last 20 years or so which made me realise how unrealistic it would be to use a dinghy in survival situations. Sure, I know that it has been done by one or two people, but you only have to read first hand accounts of how difficult it is to even use a dedicated raft to recognise that, imperfect though they may be they are light years ahead of a dinghy!

Fortunately, as I suggested earlier the number "ordinary" coastal sailors who get anywhere near needing a raft is so small as to be almost not worth considering. Once you are aware of the dangers, avoiding them is pretty straightforward. There is of course always random events - but in fact they are all random, the only patterns are in the three causes I suggested. The one you have least control over is collision in that once a collision is inevitable there is little you can do - the yacht is almost always wiped out. However there is much you can do to avoid getting into that situation, particularly since the advent of AIS and radar.

 

[LadyInBed]

The one you have least control over is collision in that once a collision is inevitable there is little you can do - the yacht is almost always wiped out. However there is much you can do to avoid getting into that situation, particularly since the advent of AIS and radar.

The only sort of collision that I dread and have no control over is something like a container floating just below the surface!

 

[Tranona]

The only sort of collision that I dread and have no control over is something like a container floating just below the surface!

That is an interesting one as despite the fears and the reports of containers falling off ships there are very few reliably recorded incidents of yachts hitting them. YM ran a feature on the issue a few years ago and found the same.

There are a number of factors involved - the loss of containers is usually in the ocean where few yachts sail, many of them sink very quickly (hopefully avoiding the seahorses on the way down) and the few first hand reports suggest that the damage is not catastrophic and there can be time for a planned abandon ship. Of course if you are in the middle of the ocean survival will depend on the liferaft and crucially means of attracting attention - cue EPIRB.

On the other hand there are also many unexplained losses where for obvious reasons it is difficult to be sure of the cause.