A Schengen Question

[confusedbrit]

Hi everyone
We have bought a yacht in Portugal that was Irish flagged and has been in the boatyard for a few years.
We have owned it for coming up to 12 months.
We have re-registered it on SSR as we live in UK.
We obviously flew in so had our passports stamped into EU/ Schengen at the airport.
We have launched the boat and now plan to sail her home to UK.
Our question is do we check out of Portugal or carry on until we are in the last country in the Schengen area before we sail to enter the UK then do it?
Aware that we need to pay light dues/circulation tax for Portugal somewhere.
If we just sail off then we are not on the record as being in Portugal (vessel not us) and that could be a problem?
If we do check out where do we do it? Can't find a definitive list of Ports of Entry...can it be done by a marina in Portugal?
Any experience or advice anyone?
Thank you

 

[westernman]

No idea about checking out.

But be prepared to pay VAT on import to the UK and the hassle of getting the UK version of RCD II certification before you can move it again from your port of entry.

Does it have an EU RCD II certificate already? It might do if not too old. If not, then be prepared possibly for an engine replacement.

 

[confusedbrit]

No idea about checking out.

But be prepared to pay VAT on import to the UK and the hassle of getting the UK version of RCD II certification before you can move it again from your port of entry.

Does it have an EU RCD II certificate already? It might do if not too old. If not, then be prepared possibly for an engine replacement.

It was built in the UK

 

[greeny]

Have you asked at the marina office. At Portimao the marina office has a desk where the maritme police hang out. Or you could try going to the nearest SEF office and ask if they can stamp you out. I doubt you'll get very much joy though. They'll probably say you have to make an appointment online and then you'll have to wait for a few weeks till it comes through. I don't know where you are located in Portugal but if you're on the Algarve, a quick trip down the motorway to the border with Spain to ask them if they will stamp you out there and then leave the next day may be possible. They did stamp an official document once for a friend whose British car had been impounded and they had to prove they'd removed it from the country to get them off the "hit list". I know a car is different to a person but if you're not too far away it may be worth asking there.
Just had a thought, have you been to they local Capitanarie and asked there. They may be able to tell you.
Just a few suggestions.

 

[Tranona]

Welcome to the forum

I am assuming you are a UK resident. Have you really thought through the implications of buying an old boat in Portugal and importing it into the UK? Since Brexit this has become extremely difficult if not impossible, It will be treated as if it is a new boat and you will have to pay VAT. In theory it will also have to comply with the latest standards, although the implementation of the standards has been subject to delays and the EU RCD certification is considered acceptable. It is not clear whether all RCD documentation back to 1997 is acceptable of whether you need the post 2013 standards. Any boat that has been lying in a boatyard in Portugal for a few years may well be too old to certified to the RCD (CE marked) and even if it is probably does not have the key documents, particularly the Certificate of Conformity

When you enter the UK you have by law to report to customs and declare the boat, so you cannot legally avoid these issues. This is nothing to do with Schengen, it is to do with the boat. It is irrelevant where the boat is registered or where it was built, You are importing from outside the UK. Seriously suggest you take professional advice, starting maybe with the RYA before you leave Portugal as you could end up with a boat you cannot legally use or sell in the UK. You will at least have to pay VAT on the agreed value of the boat.

Sorry to sound so heavy, but that is the law and what I say is based on the information you have given.

 

[Daydream believer]

. Seriously suggest you take professional advice, starting maybe with the RYA before you leave Portugal as you could end up with a boat you cannot legally use or sell in the UK. You will at least have to pay VAT on the agreed value of the boat.

Sorry to sound so heavy, but that is the law and what I say is based on the information you have given.

If you cannot sell it or use it , then its value is virtually zero so presumably VAT can be negotiated as very low. . Then keep it for a while & then upgrade for UK use. Presumably even a hull can be made to comply somehow.

 

[westernman]

It was built in the UK

So what.

Sorry, but that does not help.

What is important is does if have a RCD II certificate?
I.e. was it build post 2013 or whenever RCD II became a legal requirement and do you have that document.

If not, then getting it certified is a hassle. If much older than 2013 then it will need a new engine in order to comply with the 2013 emissions requirements.

To be clear, it will have complied with the UK regulations at the time it was built.
But on import, it has to comply with the latest and greatest regulations.

One of the most costly things being that the engine has to comply with the emissions requirements which came into force with the 2013 version of RCD II.
Which means it needs to be a pretty new engine.

 

[srm]

As the boat is in the EU would keeping it in the Republic of Ireland be acceptable? Reasonably near home and outside Schengen with free movement with UK. If so stamp passports out of Portugal when you leave so, should you go back into Schengen, your time on passage does not count towards your 90 days. Here in the Azores customs stamped our passports at the marinas.

 

[Tranona]

It was built in the UK

That is irrelevant. You really need to rethink your plans as you are leaving yourself wide open to losing a lot. You bought the boat long after the UK left the EU and the new rules came in. Maybe you should have done more research before buying a boat that you could not easily import into the UK.

It may sound illogical and unfair that you cannot bring a UK built boat into the UK but that is the reality.

 

[Graham376]

Our question is do we check out of Portugal or carry on until we are in the last country in the Schengen area before we sail to enter the UK then do it?
Aware that we need to pay light dues/circulation tax for Portugal somewhere.
If we just sail off then we are not on the record as being in Portugal (vessel not us) and that could be a problem?
If we do check out where do we do it? Can't find a definitive list of Ports of Entry...can it be done by a marina in Portugal?
Any experience or advice anyone?
Thank you

Unless you are heading out of the EU from Portugal, you check out at the last EU port before heading direct to the UK. Light dues, €70 for 6 months can be paid at the Capitania but few bother paying circulation tax. The circulation tax year starts on 1st January and applies to boats there >6 months consecutively in the year so, unless you are still here at the end of June it's not payable. We've not paid it in 17 years here.

 

[Stingo]

Hi everyone
We have bought a yacht in Portugal that was Irish flagged and has been in the boatyard for a few years.
We have owned it for coming up to 12 months.
We have re-registered it on SSR as we live in UK.
We obviously flew in so had our passports stamped into EU/ Schengen at the airport.
We have launched the boat and now plan to sail her home to UK.
Our question is do we check out of Portugal or carry on until we are in the last country in the Schengen area before we sail to enter the UK then do it?
Aware that we need to pay light dues/circulation tax for Portugal somewhere.
If we just sail off then we are not on the record as being in Portugal (vessel not us) and that could be a problem?
If we do check out where do we do it? Can't find a definitive list of Ports of Entry...can it be done by a marina in Portugal?
Any experience or advice anyone?
Thank you

Go on, tell us more about your new pride and job, where you bought her, what she is... and so on.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I bet you wish you never posted your question now .

just out of interest how old is the boat ?
was it VAT paid in the UK and do you have that document ( not that going to make any difference)
did You buy it private or through a broker.
before some says my question are irrelevant they may not be to you but may be to the OP .

one thing you can do is keep it in France for a start it’s cheaper then most of the UK , many Brits do .

you still have to move it out of the EU every 18 months but most countries now except AIS prove that the boat have left the EU .

although everything that’s been posted is correct many have returned back to the UK a with boats their brought in the EU ,
I personally I could named 12 without too much of a problem so not all is lost .

 

[ashtead]

In terms of stamping passports assuming you have an inwards stamp and feel happy you can find another port to stamp out I would wait until last exit point. The risk is your last port doesn’t have an exit stamping point of course or the resident form stamping team are not about when you plan to exit etc. my suggestion is see if you have any Irish ancestors and sign up for a new passport. The alternate is stamp on exiting Portugal and just see what process exists on next port. You might find yourself in a new port without a stamping in facility of course . This ensures you are not worrying about securing exit stamp.
As a aside latest farce is process if flying out of France and your plane diverts (eg Chembry to Grenoble) whole saga of restamping in to re-enterto be coach transferred to Grenoble to be restamped out.

 

[Tranona]

I bet you wish you never posted your question now .

just out of interest how old is the boat ?
was it VAT paid in the UK and do you have that document ( not that going to make any difference)
did You buy it private or through a broker.
before some says my question are irrelevant they may not be to you but may be to the OP .

one thing you can do is keep it in France for a start it’s cheaper then most of the UK , many Brits do .

you still have to move it out of the EU every 18 months but most countries now except AIS prove that the boat have left the EU .

although everything that’s been posted is correct many have returned back to the UK a with boats their brought in the EU ,
I personally I could named 12 without too much of a problem so not all is lost .

Sorry, Vic, that is wrong. The boat is currently an "EU" boat by virtue of being in the EU on 31/12/2020. So it has free circulation within the EU independent of the owner.
The OPs problem is that he he wants to take it out of the EU and keep it in the UK. AS a UK resident he can only do this if he formally imports it, pays VAT, and deals with the issue of certification to make it legal to use it in the UK.

Would you care to expand on the last paragraph as the Govt has firmly and publicly ruled that out unless VAT is paid. If people (assuming UK residents) have done that since 1/1/2021 they have broken the law

 

[sailaboutvic]

Sorry, Vic, that is wrong. The boat is currently an "EU" boat by virtue of being in the EU on 31/12/2020. So it has free circulation within the EU independent of the owner.
The OPs problem is that he he wants to take it out of the EU and keep it in the UK. AS a UK resident he can only do this if he formally imports it, pays VAT, and deals with the issue of certification to make it legal to use it in the UK.

Would you care to expand on the last paragraph as the Govt has firmly and publicly ruled that out unless VAT is paid. If people (assuming UK residents) have done that since 1/1/2021 they have broken the law

Your quite correct as the boat was in the EU boat he does have free circulation . My miss take.
That's of course it has had vat paid at some point .

 

[Sailfree]

Sorry, Vic, that is wrong. The boat is currently an "EU" boat by virtue of being in the EU on 31/12/2020. So it has free circulation within the EU independent of the owner.
The OPs problem is that he he wants to take it out of the EU and keep it in the UK. AS a UK resident he can only do this if he formally imports it, pays VAT, and deals with the issue of certification to make it legal to use it in the UK.

Would you care to expand on the last paragraph as the Govt has firmly and publicly ruled that out unless VAT is paid. If people (assuming UK residents) have done that since 1/1/2021 they have broken the law

There used to be many posts on tracingwhether VAT was due or had been paid on old boats - in reality I don't think HMRC were very concerned regarding old - say 1980 to 1995 boats.

I am now wondering whether HMRC will be busy chasing boats used in the EU on Brexit Day but retained their UK registration and have UK VAT paid purchase receipts.

Appreciate this may be the "official" legal position.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

There used to be many posts on tracingwhether VAT was due or had been paid on old boats - in reality I don't think HMRC were very concerned regarding old - say 1980 to 1995 boats.

I am now wondering whether HMRC will be busy chasing boats used in the EU on Brexit Day but retained their UK registration and have UK VAT paid purchase receipts.

Appreciate this may be the "official" legal position.

That's the $64,000 question although illegal an oldish British boat with British registration is unlikely to catch anyones attention, if it can be quietly sailed into the UK and remain "undetected for a year the odds are it never will be questioned. All illegal but as Vic said many will have done it, the only issue is getting it across without drawing any attention to it ie a customs cutter chancing on it midway once within a few miles of the coast it's just another yacht on a coastal passage.

 

[Graham376]

That's the $64,000 question although illegal an oldish British boat with British registration is unlikely to catch anyones attention, if it can be quietly sailed into the UK and remain "undetected for a year the odds are it never will be questioned. All illegal but as Vic said many will have done it, the only issue is getting it across without drawing any attention to it ie a customs cutter chancing on it midway once within a few miles of the coast it's just another yacht on a coastal passage.

I suppose some will try and dodge the system but if HMRC try to tie up the C1331 for boat arriving in UK with the one which would have been lodged for departure on holiday cruise, there's a problem. Is it worth risking the boat possibly being seized and hefty fine?

 

[sailaboutvic]

I suppose some will try and dodge the system but if HMRC try to tie up the C1331 for boat arriving in UK with the one which would have been lodged for departure on holiday cruise, there's a problem. Is it worth risking the boat possibly being seized and hefty fine?

they can’t even find and stop a boat full on illegals ,

 

[westernman]

If it is an old boat, the VAT is not going to be onerous. HMRC are very reasonable for estimating value of used boats.

My boat was brand new when it was directly sailed from the builder in Canada to Cowes, Isle of Wight where it was imported.
The value retained by HM customs was 1/3 of the build cost. It did though have full RCD certification in place through a Netherlands based certification agent.

For an old boat, the expense and hassle will be complying to the current RCD II certification requirements. This will almost certainly entail replacing the engine to meet the new emissions requirements.

Legally speaking, it has to comply with those requirements from the moment it is imported and used in the UK by a UK resident. The killer is it has to comply to the current version of the RCD requirements and not those in place when it was built. Even though it was built in the UK.

Can you slip the boat into the UK under the radar without getting noticed???
No idea. But it is fraud and illegal.