A safe skipper?

[Happy1]

I would be interested to know what absolute basic skills or knowledge that any forum member would expect a boat skipper to have, training or not, before they would let any member of their family on a boat with them in daylight. Would it make a difference to you if it was a river or the open sea, and if so what?

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>

 

[tcm]

I was gonna comment on the other thread. You started a new one with a wider remit. No matter.

Apply the question to a car driver - even though they are trained to a reasonable levele, there are some divers to whom I wd not trust my kids. So, training isn't a panacea. It's a "something must be done"argument.

The "training works" argument is often favoured by those whose career has a hefty training elemnent (medical, law) or who career+life depends on following the training and acting accordingly (eg armed forces). In all these disciplines, those who are crap at at the training are crap at the job. Or die.

But i am not at all sure that the same applies to boating. It certainoly doens't apply to all boaters. In many walks of life, following instructions isn't how to get ahead. They could be a very good sailor nontheless. Perhaps even a better one than those who followed the traiing notes to the letter.

Either way, the "bleeding obvious" may well not be taught. I am not at all sure that "safe numbers of people on board vessels of certain sizes" is taught by RYA course. Hence the evaluation of the person, not the training.

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[lanason]

mmmm - Good question
If there was a scale say 1 to 10 - where 10 is the Expert and 1 is the Total Novice I guess I'm at 3.
Did loads of boating with my family as a kid so I learnt the basics - did a navigation course in the 70's. But, and this is the real issue - my father did all the difficult things.
When I bought the boat last year - I only went out in Milford Haven - and then no further down than Milford itself. This year used a the boat on the River Severn. Went to Mercury with the experianced PeteM /forums/images/icons/crazy.gif on board and many boats around for guidance and help - I was fine but the boat did over heat.
Spent a week at siting moored at Dolphin Haven having fixed the overheating but I was still concerned about the engine - only happy to go out and test the engine when Duncan, Col and BarryH offered to be around - the engine would not pull full speed - fuel starvation.
I'm am doing a navigation course (correspondance) and when I get a new job will do the RYA powerboat course.
So my basic rule is unless I'm happy to go out within my ability and experiances I wont.


<hr width=100% size=1>Adrian
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[Happy1]

You haven't answered the simple question /forums/images/icons/wink.gif Forget about any training or whatever, I am just interested in what YOU would expect from a skipper taking a member of your family out on a boat.

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[Happy1]

No,No,No, I understand where you are and thanks for that, BUT as I said to TCM, let's just try and reflect what YOU would expect from a skipper who was say taking your kids out for the day on a boat /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

e.g.

a) Capable of handling the boat safely
b) A basic knowledge of the rules of the road
c) Capable of recovering a MOB
d) Having the correct safety eqiupment on board for the journey
e) Knowing the capabilities of the craft

e.t.c.

We have all had a bit of experience, and having moved through that is there a minimum you would accept now. It may be that some parts would be sub divided like rules of the road, which is a lengthy subject and perhaps a skeleton knowledge would be acceptable to you.

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[aztec]

just read your post on scuttlebutt, so have a good idea where this one's going.

suffice to say, i know people who have used boats, built boats, repaired and converted boats, on river, harbour and sea, both for recreation and for work.

some are competant to move and manouver boats, some arn't, some have qualifications, some don't.

when all is equal and everything is going fine, all the above can use a boat safely. but, when things start to go wrong or become a little difficult, all the training in the world will not help if you don't have enough information or knowledge to make a decicive plan.

there is no "basic requirement" to own or use a boat. it is totally dependent on whether you know what you're doing. some do, and some don't.. those who don't usually end up getting away with it. as long as those who do, are there to pick up the pieces when it all goes wrong.

if you identify a training need in yourself, go for it. but try not to insist that everyone else has to be trained to be safe. and yes, it does make a difference whether on river or sea. but then again, my river's only little, so if anyone falls in they can just walk ashore. (plays merry hell with props tho')

best wishes, steve.


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[Happy1]

Some people have drowned in 'little rivers' /forums/images/icons/wink.gif Please try and answer the question as it is an interesting point, there is nothing untoward with it at all.

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[EME]

Not quite sure there is a 'right' answer to that one.

It has to boil down to experience, but how do you measure it without having been with the skipper in question?

Two real examples - I've been with a 13 yr old who is very proficient and confident, yet who has to my knowledge not one bit of formal training. His knowledge comes from experience and a dad who has drummed in what is good and bad. The other extreme would be myself , paper quals. coming out of the proverbial both practical and theory but nowhere near the experience to conduct 'skippering' safely with responsibility for others who are less knowledgeable than me..

Training can only teach you principles, experience provides competence, but responsibility has to be a state of mind...



<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue>I am WHAT I say I am</font color=blue>

 

[duncan]

It is probably best to move this from the arena of boats because we are all (or most of us certainly) experienced enough to make such an evaluation.
I would expect anyone being remunerated to be undertaking a task they were competent at - taxi driver, pilot etc and I would therefore apply it to water taxis, ferry's etc in boating circles.
In practice there is a presumption that a boat owner, in his apparant home waters, is competent unless he illustrates otherwise - but to realise this you would have to be competent yourself. In extreme there is the a good parallel with the yacht in "Perfect Storm".
In practice all craft should be certified for load/conditions and the introduction of these (however daft some of them appear at first sight) was a good thing. Interestingly some now show varied load conditions eg Cat B for 6 persons=600kg Cat D for 8 persons=800kg. Clearly in older craft most private craft do not have such a clear line between design loads and owner aspiration.
Finally maybe they should augment the Categories to include a P for tied up to the pontoon loading?

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[TonyGerrard]

I guess a lot depends on the environment. On a river, anyone who has got a modicum of common sense and few weekends under their belt is probably good enough as far as adult passengers are concerned (children might be a different issue).
Pootling around the coast always in sight of land requires a better level of experience and local knowledge but doesn't seem too threatening.
Out of sight of land is a different thing altogether - as a novice I don't know what's really essential but Day Skipper seems like a basic requirement. For longer range nighttime boating I'd want to be with someone with several years' experience.
For myself, I'm still at the starting gate.......
Cheers

<hr width=100% size=1>TonyG

 

[aztec]

sorry pete, i can't. the questions are too ambiguous and hypothetical.

thinking back to when I started using boats, there are things that have happened that if it were someone else, I would have had concerns. but we all learn, generally a whole load quicker when we screw up.

ask the mother of one of the stokers aboard HMS Nottingham if she feels her sons safety was in question when Captain Plum ran her aground on charted rocks.

don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with training as you know. but, the content only comes from other peoples experiences and ultimately peoples deaths or injury, with a view to elimnating or reducing the chances of the same thing happening again.

proving competance is a very different animal tho'... and it differs from training in that the un-trained may have a competance level that the trained would only hope to aspire to.

thus... if you want it, buy it... if you don't leave it on the shelf.

steve.

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[Happy1]

EXAMPLE

I understand people have had training, learnt on the job from parents e.t.c. but perhaps we should look at it another way as it doesn't seem to be working /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

So if you had a person new to boating with NO experience and you had TWO hours with them and a 20ft boat, what would you teach them before you let a member of your family on the boat with them alone to go out to sea.

e.g. use of killcord, mooring skills, basic rules of the road, planing, approaching wash, green & red the difference, the effect of wash e.g. unloading boat when a big one steams past, danger of props, MOB drill, use of flares e.t.c

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=purple> "You only see what you recognise, and you only recognise what you know" <font color=purple>

 

[andrewbarker]

I presume you mean children - not adults?? It's not my right to "let" SWMBO go or not go. There is a point here: there are responsibilities on people - specially adults - who do something which has inherent risks. If I went out on someone else's boat which then got into difficulties or wasn't up to the conditions I would hold myself responsible at least in part for my own actions. As for a "safe" skipper, I would say that it's definitely the case that attention to detail and "care" for people have to be in evidence. The planning ahead part of what a skipper does is where tragedies are avoided, not in carrying out Williamson turns etc.

Don't we all know good qualified skippers and bad qualified skippers? I know a few with quals which have increased their arrogance no end - sadly not their ability to care for those on board.

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[Happy1]

EXAMPLE deleted as duplicated in error

deleted as duplicated

 

[aztec]

Re: EXAMPLE

if I had two hours to teach someone with zero knowledge how to safely handle a 20ft boat...

I would't show them

1) how to untie/launch
2) how to start the engine



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[aztec]

Re: EXAMPLE

if I had two hours to teach someone with zero knowledge how to safely handle a 20ft boat...

I wouldn't show them

1) how to untie/launch
2) how to start the engine



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[Happy1]

Steve, I have changed it, it was not clear as you stated, see post EXAMPLE that might be easier /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

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[tcm]

Answering the question

First and foremost - I think i wd have to be satisfied that they got on as a crew first of all - that i understood the dynamics of the crew. The same would apply if they went on a car journey - i'd have to be happy that the kids, as well as getting on with each other (and i saw them on a Laser dinghy a mile offshore getting on well even upon capsize) that they would get on with the crew, especially with the skipper, and wd respect what the skipper told them. This sort-of means that the skipper would have to have as good as knowledge of boating and his boat as i have on my boat, or thereabouts, or perhaps lots more, as many do. It's less important if I am on board, as i'd be able to pitch in, tellem to do as skipper says, take over or whatever.

All the above is at least as important as ability, but regardles of ability, the attitude of the skipper is pre-emninently vital. It's a secondary and much more easily assessable issue of whether the conditions are suitable, that the saftey gear is right and so on. But the point is of course that the right skipper would know (and would tell me) if conditions weren't right, or if s/he felt more crew needed and so on.

It also means that reagrdless of how well some people were trained, I'm afraid I would never EVER let my kids out on their boat. Because they'd be the sort that would imagine that there a level of pure training (rather than attitude) that means heyho, i am now supermagayacht qualified enough to take 12 kids, shippem aboard, they'll be safe as houses! Which can never be true.

Of course, this doesnt apply to many people at all. In fact, I think i wd let my kids on almost any boat except H1's. Sorry. Worse, I would let my kids on happy's boat PROVIDED they were on their own, and he wasn't on board. Becausei think they wd evaluate much more relaistically whether there was too much equipment,. They make sure that they had enough gear, and the rest was ashore in case they took a wave. They'd listen to others, and extrapolate. They'd simply not go out if it was iffy. They would call a halt to the excursion regardless of the disappointment. They would operate within the envelope of their own and the boats ability, not push that envelope as a route to learning and to prove others wrong. Sorry about this, but i am answering the question!

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[aztec]

Re: Answering the question

very good point and if i may say, very well made.

steve.

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[EME]

Re: EXAMPLE

Two hours for the inexperienced and uneducated?

I'd spend 5 minutes showing the where the fridge and icemaker were and the rest of the time apologising to the kids for not letting them out with someone like that and arrange to go and do something else.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=blue>I am WHAT I say I am</font color=blue>