A Precautionary Note on Fischer Panda Generators

geoffschultz

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installed a Fisher Panda 4.2 KW raw water cooled generator in my 40’ Freedom sloop named BlueJacket per the recommendation of Freedom. New England Boatworks (NEB) of Portsmouth, Rhode Island (RI) installed it in September of 1999. NEB is an authorized Fischer Panda dealer and installer. While NEB was installing the unit they dropped it. The unit was shipped back to Fischer Panda in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida for repair and came back supposedly having been fully repaired.

In October of 1999 The unit was burned-in at the dock and had the 35-hour maintenance performed by NEB. That fall, on a trip from Portsmouth, RI to the BVIs, the generator stopped running and wouldn't start. At this point it had about 60 hours on it. After many e-mails with tech support I determined that the fuel solenoid valve connector was faulty. This was replaced on January 18, 2000.

On January 25, 2000 the generator suddenly began running too fast, or at least that was my assessment. Many e-mails were exchanged with tech support and many hours were spent on my part trying to diagnose the problem. I finally gave up as this was beyond my level of expertise.

In June of 2000, which is 9 months after having the genset installed, I returned to Rhode Island where NEB looked at the genset. They spent a lot of time and finally gave up and shipped it back to Ft. Lauderdale where it was determined that the some of the governor weights had come loose or off. I was also informed that they had found that the piston rings and cylinder were rusted so they re-bored the engine. Finally in November of 2000 it was re-installed in BlueJacket. Once again it was burned in at the dock and had another "35 hour" maintenance performed on it. This was just in time for a return trip to the BVIs. The unit had less than 100 hours on it, most of those burning it in.

During my trip from Portsmouth, RI to the BVIs the unit began to leak diesel at the fuel solenoid valve. Somehow the solenoid shaft had broken lose from the base. Fischer Panda stated that they had seen this before and replaced the part for me, even though it was "out of warranty", having passed the 1 year mark. This was mid-December, 2000.

From January to April, 2001 the unit ran relatively well. I continued to have problems with the fuel solenoid electrical connector losing connection. In April I put BlueJacket onto the hard in Grenada where was Awl Gripped. Before doing so I ran the system using fresh water at the raw water intake. The genset had 550 hours on it.

When I returned in September of 2001, the genset would not start. A local diesel/genset dealer determined that the reason that it wouldn't start was due to a lack of compression as evidenced by a large amount of blow-back through the crankcase. I had seen this while I was cruising during the winter, but hadn't understood the implications. I religiously maintained oil levels and changed oil per schedule.

After a day or so of trying to get the engine to start, it finally started. However, it blows a ton of soot and black smoke when loaded above 15A, whereas it’s rated for 34A. I continued to run the generator for a 2.5 month trip from Grenada to Curacao, where the boat is currently sitting. Other than the starter solenoid failing, the unit ran OK, but was limited to 15A.

I determined that Tony Rushton was the president of Fischer Panda in Ft. Lauderdale and he provided me with his e-mail address. Hoping that he would help me resolve these issues, I sent a detailed e-mail to him describing my problems. After a week of not hearing anything, I sent another e-mail. Two weeks later, still nothing. Clearly he has no interest in attempting to resolve my problems.

After it became apparent that Fischer Panda wasn't going to provide any support I had a diesel mechanic in Curacao pull the genset to determine the root cause of the problem. It turns out that the block is cracked. Now I have no way of determining when, where, or how this occurred, but I would guess that it occurred when the engine was dropped. This certainly explains the rusted cylinder which was found before. How they missed the crack is beyond me. It also explains why it wouldn't start in Grenada as the rings were rusted again and this time the rust is sufficient to cause the blow-by, lack of compression, and associated soot & black smoke.

All in all my experience with Fischer Panda has been very negative. I could never recommend one of their generators to anyone. Maybe the cause of the problem was the initial drop, but the fact that they didn't detect the cracked block on any of the two times the unit was back to the factory is inexcusable. And the fact that they are ignoring my e-mails can't be forgiven.

-- Geoff Schultz
S/V BlueJacket

P.S. I just got the quote for a replacement Ferryman diesel. $3100..
 
G

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Very sorry to hear about your repeated problems. You are to be commended for maintaining your sensibilities and writing a concise and relatively unemotional post about your experiences. I say that because I would more than likely not be nearly as politely spoken about the issue.

Needless to say, we have been looking at generators for our boat......and it seems rather obvious that we have just ruled out "Fischer Panda".
Sounds to me like they have alot to learn about "customer service" and standing behind their product.

Good luck with your next generator!!
 
G

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Interesting it's not so much the genset as the people who supplied/installed it.

My 4.5Kv Fischer Panda lies somewhere in or perhaps at the bottom of Rodney Bay where I left it in frustration it having completely seized two days out from the Canaries after circa 60 hours running - it having been solemnly declared irrepairable.

Much sleuthing later, I determined that the unit itself had been sitting on the supplier's shelf for 2 years. It apparently was flooded on installation in another boat, returned to Germany for refurbishment and then supplied to me "as new". However a flooded genset needs to have frequent oil changes - since mine was "new" no one told me about them! It seized. Funny that.

Quite whose fault it was (supplier local Fischer Panda Agent) I never really determined. However, after much bargaining on my return to UK waters, it was eventually replaced with a Fischer Panda 6 Kv indirect cooled gen set.

This is truly the business and I am very happy with it and I would recommend it. Very economical and very quiet (much more so than the 4Kv set).
 

HaraldS

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Had I read these terrible stories earlier, I certainly wouldn't have gotten a Fisher Panda. It seems their support and attitude is maybe worse than the products.

Interestingly the folks at my yard told me that they recommend not to take the 4.5kW unit as it's not very reliable. I needed more power anyway, to start the dive compressor and so I chose the 6kW and so far it hasn't let me down and I hope I'll never need their service.

Certainly good to warn everyone of us, even if it came too late for me.
 

geoffschultz

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Preliminary Success

I am happy to report that the president of Fischer Panda, USA, just called me to discuss my problem. He was very apologetic for dropping the ball. We had a very constructive conversation and we agreed that:

1) Fischer Panda will ship a new Farryman engine to Curacao. 2) I will ship my old unit back to them. 3) They will determine what the cause of the problem is 4) If it is determined that this isn't a Fischer Panda problem, I'll pay for the new engine.

This was actually my proposal. You might think that I'm crazy for agreeing to point 4, but I was about to buy a new engine from a distributor anyhow. I believe that FP will be fair in their analysis, and with all of the pressure coming from other organizations within FP (I e- mail blanketed the US and German parent site), I think that they'll see things my way. Or at least I hope that they will. I want to show them that I'm very willing to work with them, and hopefully they'll respond in kind.

Things are looking up right now. I'll keep you posted.

-- Geoff
 

geoffschultz

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\"Unbeatable Fischer Panda Warranty\"

There has been significant (60+ posts) regarding my issue in the news rec.boats.cruising news group. One very interesting post was brought up regarding the Fischer Panda warranty. I'll just quote it. If you're interested, please read the news group or use http://www.deja.com/ and search for "Fischer Panda" under rec.boats.cruising for the entire thread.

>BTW, I have their sales brochure here in front of me. They claim
>their warranty is "unlike any other generators". Well, ok. They
>warranty the rotor indefinitely. They warranty the generator back
>end for five years.

>But they warranty the engine only for ONE year.

>Contrast that with the new Kohler 8kw unit that I just had
>installed to replace my failed Onan.

>Five years or 2,000 hours, covering the engine AND electrical end.
>Including labor to pull and replace if necessary
>$100 "per incident" charge in years 3-5, $0 for the first two.

>"The unbeatable Panda warranty"?

>Its not even close by my calculation. Unbeatable HOW? That the
>rotor has a lifetime warranty? That's nice, but irrelevant if the
>engine blows up after two years!

>(And oh, by the way, that Kohler was $6,600; the best quote I had
>on the Panda of equivalent output was $14,000. I could EAT one of
>the Kohlers ENTIRELY and STILL be ahead!)

>The Entec-West 4200 looks to be powered with a Farymann W18 engine
>from what I have here - same motor that's in the Panda. Entek
>West's unit is actually LIGHTER (170 lbs .vs. 233), is smaller (20"
>long .vs. 21, 13" wide .vs. 15, and 18.5" high .vs. 21!) AND is
>heat-exchanger cooled - a big plus for a saltwater boat. With the
>enclosure the Entec-West is an inch or so larger in all dimensions
>than the Panda, still compares well weight wise (they're a pound
>different) AND their enclosure is stainless steel - not fiberglass.

>Finally, the EW-4200D in the enclosure specs out at 63Dba at one
>meter.

>Panda's 4200 specs at 66dba @ 1 Meter.

>3dB is SIGNIFICANT.

>The Entec-West is QUITE A BIT quieter in its enclosure.
>(Also, they have designed the unit so it can be hand-started....
>that's nice, particularly when your battery is completely dead!)

>I'd price the Entec West 4200 before allowing Panda to sell me a
>new engine, but that's just me.

-- Geoff
 

couchsailors

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Re: \"Unbeatable Fischer Panda Warranty\"

I'm also having terrible luck with Fischer Panda. I can't believe how bad their customer service is. We had two email threads going for two separate subjects. One of them ended in July, the other one started in August. The one in July was dead, but in August when I ordered a part they sent me the part from the dead email thread. They won't recognize their mistake, compensate me for the shipping fees and they want to charge a restocking fee. They've been rude on the phone, uncooperative and even threatened me if I filed a credit card chargeback.

Would you mind sharing the President's contact info?

Thanks
 

Poecheng

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Re: \"Unbeatable Fischer Panda Warranty\"

I'm also having terrible luck with Fischer Panda. I can't believe how bad their customer service is. We had two email threads going for two separate subjects. One of them ended in July, the other one started in August. The one in July was dead, but in August when I ordered a part they sent me the part from the dead email thread. They won't recognize their mistake, compensate me for the shipping fees and they want to charge a restocking fee. They've been rude on the phone, uncooperative and even threatened me if I filed a credit card chargeback.

Would you mind sharing the President's contact info?

Thanks
Oh, top marks for this revival, one of the best yet - 16 full years after the last post and the OP has not been seen since 2009 (well at least on here).
 

KellysEye

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3,000 rpm generators have a life of 1,000 hours, 1,500 is 8,000 or more. Our Lombardini 3,000 rpm generator, fitted by he previous owner, committed suicide at 550 hours. We checked which 2,500 generators need the least repairs and top came Northern Lights closely followed by Westerbeke so we fitted the latter.
 

RichardS

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3,000 rpm generators have a life of 1,000 hours, 1,500 is 8,000 or more. Our Lombardini 3,000 rpm generator, fitted by he previous owner, committed suicide at 550 hours. We checked which 2,500 generators need the least repairs and top came Northern Lights closely followed by Westerbeke so we fitted the latter.

So if you ran the genny for only 6 hours a day, it would expire after less than 6 months usage ..... i.e. whilst still under statutory guarantee? :confused:

Richard
 

sailaboutvic

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Well we bit the bullet and replace are old 4 kv FP sea water cool with there latest edition 4.5 fresh water cool end of last year .
So far so good although we not used it much yet . As far as service goes , I have to say FP UK was very good with info on my old one , they where always happy to chat through problems we was having and making suggestion on how to put it right .
I read all the bad reports on FP get set and there are quite a lot , the decided to buy FP again because it was the only gen set that would fit in my engine compartment, it was just a matter of remove one and fitting the new one without too much problems or cost and the old FP been on the boat for 15 years and although the sea water side was looking ropey the rest was ok .
O lay time will tell if we regrets buying FP .
 

KellysEye

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>So if you ran the genny for only 6 hours a day, it would expire after less than 6 months usage ..... i.e. whilst still under statutory guarantee?

Our 3,000 rpm generator broke beyond repair the last thing I would want is another one even with a guarantee. I suspect most generators on yachts are not used six hours a day we used ours for an hour running a water maker, charging was done by a wind generator.
 

KellysEye

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A couple other things I forgot to mention are I also asked about the least repaired engine, it was Yanmar with no other engine close. With furling gear the least repaired is Furlex.
 
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