A little gearbox advice needed.

[daveyw121]

Hi I'm new to the forum and to boating so please excuse my ignorance. We have a freeman 22 that we've recently bought and have a few little problems that I'm hoping to get some advice on. Its fitted with a Perkins 4107 engine and TMP 12000 gearbox. We have a problem with the gearbox and after doing some research its looking like were going to have to either remove and send away for overhaul or look at other possibilities, one of those is replacing it with an alternative. I've had a good look round and its looking like TMP gearbox's are a little thin on the ground prm gearbox's on the other hand are everyone. So would it be possible to replace the TMP with an equivalent prm gearbox? If it is could anyone tell me what's involved? Will I need to replace bellhousings/flywheel things like that. Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

 

[Chris_d]

I'd give Andrew Cordless a ring at http://www.freemancruisers.com/ in Moulsford he should be able to advise, although with a 4108 its likely non-orignal but he will know every possible
combination of engine and gearbox possible etc...

 

[CalicoJack]

Ring TMP 01932843072. I've always found them very helpful. Also worth a look at their website lots of information there.

 

[Latestarter1]

Hi I'm new to the forum and to boating so please excuse my ignorance. We have a freeman 22 that we've recently bought and have a few little problems that I'm hoping to get some advice on. Its fitted with a Perkins 4107 engine and TMP 12000 gearbox. We have a problem with the gearbox and after doing some research its looking like were going to have to either remove and send away for overhaul or look at other possibilities, one of those is replacing it with an alternative. I've had a good look round and its looking like TMP gearbox's are a little thin on the ground prm gearbox's on the other hand are everyone. So would it be possible to replace the TMP with an equivalent prm gearbox? If it is could anyone tell me what's involved? Will I need to replace bellhousings/flywheel things like that. Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

TMP was standard option behind Perkins 4.107 don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

TMP are still/were in business when I had one re-built two years ago out of ex MOD Nicholson 50 originally fitted with the 4.107/TMP combination. MOD rightly dumped the Perkins in the fleet and replaced them with Yanamr, however MOD insisted that the TMP's were retained as installation would become completely screwed. When I contacted TMP owner was about 80 then and tried selling me the business! However repairs were carried out in a quick an efficient manner and certainly not expensive.

4.107 was a big old noisy old iron in a Freeman 22..........

Good luck

 

[aquapower]

Hi I'm new to the forum and to boating so please excuse my ignorance. We have a freeman 22 that we've recently bought and have a few little problems that I'm hoping to get some advice on. Its fitted with a Perkins 4107 engine and TMP 12000 gearbox. We have a problem with the gearbox and after doing some research its looking like were going to have to either remove and send away for overhaul or look at other possibilities, one of those is replacing it with an alternative. I've had a good look round and its looking like TMP gearbox's are a little thin on the ground prm gearbox's on the other hand are everyone. So would it be possible to replace the TMP with an equivalent prm gearbox? If it is could anyone tell me what's involved? Will I need to replace bellhousings/flywheel things like that. Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

The TMP had its own flywheel with bushes and not the conventional drive plate when fitted to a 4-107, they could be a bit of a battle to seperate if not been off in a while, I have the manual somewhere but not seen it for a while. The reduction box used to catch a few people out as it had its own oil and was seperate from main box, also when left unprotected from frost they used to freeze and blow the casting. If fitted to a Freeman I would guess the reduction box is turned so engine sits off centre.

 

[Alpha22]

+1
Next door boat in my marina had one done by them last year. Top service.
Either strap it to a pallet or take it yourself in the car.

 

[daveyw121]

Thanks for all your input guys I really appreciate it. I'll tell you what I've found out up to now. Both dipsticks on the box are showing signs of water in the oil (looks like mushrooming soup, like when a head gaskets gone). On the dipstick for the reduction box there was also brass filings which was a worry so I've loosened off the rearmost casing for the reduction box and could see that the output shaft bearing had decided to lunch itself. I've spoken with Kevin at thamesway marine and he is very helpful and a nice guy to chat with in general, and I know most people would just remove the box and send it to him but I need to keep the cost down if possible and hes told me its going to cost £500 labour plus parts needed plus all gaskets and seals plus vat. I'm guessing were going to be close to £1000 all together which we just can't afford at the moment. I'm a mechanic by trade so I'm fortunate enough to be able to tackle most jobs myself but obviously I have a few concerns. My thoughts were either to remove and overhaul the box myself or replace it completely with a different gearbox altogether that's easier to get hold of and cheaper to buy second hand, whichever option was the cheaper. I just don't know how involved the second option would be and which other parts I'd need to replace. Ive read elsewhere on the forum that some people have a prm box fitted which is why I asked about that originally. Has anyone here ever worked on a gearbox themselves? Has anyone done or heard of swapping from one gearbox make to another? Am I crazy taking on the job myself? I ordered a manual from thamesway and had a good look through it and compared to a car gearbox it looks fairly straightforward (famous last words) but having restored a few old cars I've learned that nothing is ever as straightforward as it seems.

 

[Latestarter1]

Thanks for all your input guys I really appreciate it. I'll tell you what I've found out up to now. Both dipsticks on the box are showing signs of water in the oil (looks like mushrooming soup, like when a head gaskets gone). On the dipstick for the reduction box there was also brass filings which was a worry so I've loosened off the rearmost casing for the reduction box and could see that the output shaft bearing had decided to lunch itself. I've spoken with Kevin at thamesway marine and he is very helpful and a nice guy to chat with in general, and I know most people would just remove the box and send it to him but I need to keep the cost down if possible and hes told me its going to cost £500 labour plus parts needed plus all gaskets and seals plus vat. I'm guessing were going to be close to £1000 all together which we just can't afford at the moment. I'm a mechanic by trade so I'm fortunate enough to be able to tackle most jobs myself but obviously I have a few concerns. My thoughts were either to remove and overhaul the box myself or replace it completely with a different gearbox altogether that's easier to get hold of and cheaper to buy second hand, whichever option was the cheaper. I just don't know how involved the second option would be and which other parts I'd need to replace. Ive read elsewhere on the forum that some people have a prm box fitted which is why I asked about that originally. Has anyone here ever worked on a gearbox themselves? Has anyone done or heard of swapping from one gearbox make to another? Am I crazy taking on the job myself? I ordered a manual from thamesway and had a good look through it and compared to a car gearbox it looks fairly straightforward (famous last words) but having restored a few old cars I've learned that nothing is ever as straightforward as it seems.

The comment by Aqapower reminded me exactly as to the reason why MOD had the new Yanmar engines adapted to accept the TMP box, the the fact that engine is offset from shaft C/L.

Simply a case of AOS.....All options stink. Just think about it, you would be unlikely to purchase decent PRM 80? engine adapter plate, drive plate, new shaft coupling, make new engine brackets, AV mounts, and re-align engine to suit new gearbox, even with heap of DIY input and get anywhere on a 1K budget.

Boating is about enjoyment, and it is also a luxury. TMP box is quirky old thing, not sure why anybody would want to mess with it themselves when £500 plus the usual stuff gets the job done rather than face a winter of discontent. Apparently TMP are very helpful toward DIY ers, projects started with such good intent end up on Ebay.

If money is so tight consider dumping the Perkins/TMP and fit secondhand Ford Watamota or Wortham Blake gasoline engine, only make about £250 when they come up and that includes mechanical box, makes for far nicer boat.

 

[daveyw121]

Isn't tinkering and restoring these old things part of the enjoyment?
EBay's for quitters it won't end up there.
There are times in your life when £1000 may as well be a million and if you don't have it to spare then that's that your getting your hands dirty. So by the sounds of it it isn't just a simple case of bolting on a different box? (Now were getting somewhere). If we were to consider watamoto or wortham blake option where would you say is the best place to look? And how often do they comw up for sale? As i said im new to boating so be gentle.
AOS, I like that a good one to remember.

 

[Latestarter1]

Isn't tinkering and restoring these old things part of the enjoyment?
EBay's for quitters it won't end up there.
There are times in your life when £1000 may as well be a million and if you don't have it to spare then that's that your getting your hands dirty. So by the sounds of it it isn't just a simple case of bolting on a different box? (Now were getting somewhere). If we were to consider watamoto or wortham blake option where would you say is the best place to look? And how often do they comw up for sale? As i said im new to boating so be gentle.
AOS, I like that a good one to remember.

I am old enough to remember Freeman 22's when they were new, first ones had marinised Ford 100E side valve motors, later ones had far sweeter OHV 105E.

The boats were a revelation, finish and fit out as well as engineering was superb. We thought the diesel powered 22's were a bit noisy and nasty.

Let me tell you a story, three years ago a fitter who occasionally did work for me called me up and told me he had purchased EXACTLY the Freeman 22 model you have. The guy begged me for some input on how to update and improve what he had just purchased. The fitter in question had been rock solid, took to modern electronic engines and was master at diagnostics electrical/electronic and mechanical, in all a brilliant flying toolbox, when you are dealing with gas powered buses you need good support.

Cut an long story short, starting with a clean sheet of paper the little Perkins Shibura 28 hp looked good. marketed by Volvo Penta as Volvo 2030. I purchased an engine from VP dealer I know who had taken it in part ex against exactly the same motor, owner was off World cruising wanted to go off with new motor. Little Perkins puddle jumper came for £600 delivered, but without the Hurth/ZF box. Now we had a plan, my fitter went off and sourced correct ZF box second hand and rebuilt it. We agreed that I would be paid for the engine in labour, no problem with that, however the big however the flying tool box worked too hard and his wife dumped him, stopped answering the phone, boatyard did not get paid so the stripped shell of the Freeman 22 was sold to defray costs. Me, I am stuck with a little Green engine I have absolutely no use for, fed up with tripping over it!

Want to do the job properly and you are a handy guy, update the machinery, you will see I have no time for geriatric old engines particularly Perkins ones. I can sell you a good starter for ten.

 

[volvopaul]

I am old enough to remember Freeman 22's when they were new, first ones had marinised Ford 100E side valve motors, later ones had far sweeter OHV 105E.

The boats were a revelation, finish and fit out as well as engineering was superb. We thought the diesel powered 22's were a bit noisy and nasty.

Let me tell you a story, three years ago a fitter who occasionally did work for me called me up and told me he had purchased EXACTLY the Freeman 22 model you have. The guy begged me for some input on how to update and improve what he had just purchased. The fitter in question had been rock solid, took to modern electronic engines and was master at diagnostics electrical/electronic and mechanical, in all a brilliant flying toolbox, when you are dealing with gas powered buses you need good support.

Cut an long story short, starting with a clean sheet of paper the little Perkins Shibura 28 hp looked good. marketed by Volvo Penta as Volvo 2030. I purchased an engine from VP dealer I know who had taken it in part ex against exactly the same motor, owner was off World cruising wanted to go off with new motor. Little Perkins puddle jumper came for £600 delivered, but without the Hurth/ZF box. Now we had a plan, my fitter went off and sourced correct ZF box second hand and rebuilt it. We agreed that I would be paid for the engine in labour, no problem with that, however the big however the flying tool box worked too hard and his wife dumped him, stopped answering the phone, boatyard did not get paid so the stripped shell of the Freeman 22 was sold to defray costs. Me, I am stuck with a little Green engine I have absolutely no use for, fed up with tripping over it!

Want to do the job properly and you are a handy guy, update the machinery, you will see I have no time for geriatric old engines particularly Perkins ones. I can sell you a good starter for ten.

What a lovely offer to him Paul, reading that has just brought a smile to my face.

Poster, I'll back this one up, throw away that old Perkins and TMP on eBay, fit the Volvo you won't go wrong and the cost will pay you back the day you sell the Freeman. Im looking for a suitable Freeman for a Thames jaunt sometime because when I was a boy Freemans were new on the Trent local to me, all I ever did was drool over them with my father , saying the old words of " one day we will have something like that" I must say luckily things jumped a bit higher but a nice Freeman whatever size will always bring a smile to a face.Go for it.

 

[daveyw121]

Interesting. I'm still all ears. It might be beneficial for us both to have a chat at some point. A questions just sprung to mind, when restoring an old boat is it the same as when doing a car? As in you wanna keep everything as close to original as possible or doesn't it matter to people? Do you have the gearbox you mentioned or did you mechanic end up keeping that?