A jimi type colregs question

[bedouin]

I think he's right - "Restricted in Ability to Manoeuvre" is a special case in Colregs which only relates to vessels who are carrying out some form of activity that restricts them taking the action they would otherwise be required to by Colregs. E.G underwater surveys, aircraft carriers with planes landing / taking off and so on.

This certainly does not apply to Jools, but I think he can claim to be a vessel "only able to navigate with safety in a narrow channel" and so the dinghy is required "not to impede his safe navigation". The Dinghy clearly failed in that respect and was definitely out of order.

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[stephenh]

So...let us assume that Jools is mentally applying the Narrow Channels rule (9) - the dinghy (assuming he knew the Colregs!!) would not neccessarily be aware of this.

Is there a case for all vessels to prominently display their draught ( on the stern / bows ) ??? - commercial vessels do , but by the time you can see how deep they are they have run you down......

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[bedouin]

I think that would be a case of "if you are close enough to read this then you are too close" /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

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[Goodge]

Rules aside I don't think the dinghy would have a problem in tacking once he was alerted to the yachts's problem.

If you think like a dinghy racer you are blatting along, crew out on the wire, sailing wonderfully well concerned only with getting to the next mark and/or where the competition is. As a dinghy racer he is probably blissfully unaware of the impending problem that the yacht is about to encounter.

A quick shout from the yacht to the dinghy would have alerted him and he would have tacked, I'm sure.

Racing dinghies do this all the time, its not always convenient but you accept it as part of the game.

As someone who races dinghies and yachts I would say that most racers are well clued up on the rules and would have co-operated if they were made aware of the situation.






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[racingron]

Where was the narrow channel? You're looking for constrained by draught.

Anyway, he was only constrained by draught because he went to far. The dinghy had no way of knowing he was running out of water. Even if he'd run up his correct daymarks he still has to give the dinghy opportunity to keep clear from any manoevres he makes.

The dinghy was not out of order in any way shape or form.

How about "always maintaining a proper watch"?

Also a hail is perfectly valid. In the real world when ships need to manoevre they simply call up the other vessel on 16 and sort it out between them. When scaled down a hail is fine.

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[bedouin]

Actually if you check the rules you will see that a sailing vessel cannot be "constrained by draught".

The concept of "narrow channel of fairway" is deliberately vague in colregs, and is relative to the size of the vessels involved. i.e. what is a narrow channel for a supertanker is not a narrow channel for a yacht. I am not familiar with the Straits in question but from what I know of the area it is could certainly be called a narrow channel from the perspective of a yacht.

Anyway irrespective of that it is clear that the dinghy was overtaking, and so is the give way vessel. Under colregs the give way vessel is required "to keep well clear". If he is close enough that you have to call for water before being able to tack then I would not call that "well clear".

All vessels are also required to have "due regard to all dangers of navigation and collision and to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved," The dinghy clearly did not have regard for the fact that the bigger boat was running out of water.





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[racingron]

Obviously you and I see it differently and it's not a major issue in the greater scheme of things.

The dinghy is not expected to anticipate the tack IMHO - overtaking's fine but the other vessel should stand on - i.e. not make any dramatic alterations in course (I think a tack would qualify here).

Anyway, it'd make for an entertaining afternoon on the water if it were you and I on the repective helms!

Good sailing,

Ron.

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[racingron]

Obviously you and I see it differently and it's not a major issue in the greater scheme of things.

The dinghy is not expected to anticipate the tack IMHO - overtaking's fine but the other vessel should stand on - i.e. not make any dramatic alterations in course (I think a tack would qualify here).

Anyway, it'd make for an entertaining afternoon on the water if it were you and I on the respective helms!

Good sailing,

Ron.

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[bedouin]

Indeed - it is such differences of opinion that make interesting discussions on the forum, and embarrasing incidents on the water /forums/images/icons/smile.gif


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[Cornishman]

"In the real world when ships need to manoevre they simply call up the other vessel on 16 and sort it out between them."
Oh, no they don't! There have been too many VHF assisted collisions and you will find that in various places such as the radio operator's course syllabus this practice is discouraged. There is a 'M' Notice on the subject. The problem is identification which might eventually be overcome by the introduction of AIS (automatic identification system).
RIN members will find a very interesting article on the subject in the May edition of The Journal.
In this case the cat should have sounded two short blasts before performing her tack. This is taught in the Shore Based Theory courses, and emphasised on the 5 day practical course. The sound signal apparatus should be to hand when navigating difficult waters such as Menai.

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[Nick_Pam]

And as an ex-dinghy sailor/racer, who is now learning the "big-boat way" I can guarantee that the 505 helm would have had ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what the two sound signals were for, but he had been hailed and asked for room to tack, then he would have been out of the way in seconds....
I'm sorry, but I put this down to a failure to anticipate the arising situation on the part of both skippers and no small degree of "assumption" instead of "clarification" on both parts.
Me??? I'd have shouted me head off for room to tack!!!!!!!
Nick

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[Benbow]

Thankyou Cornishman. This is a pet peeve of mine, I am constantly reading here
that calling up the other boat on ch16 will remove all doubt. It is dangerous and distracting to attempt to negotiate your way out of a potential collision by means of VHF. Stick to the colregs !

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[racingron]

Regardless of whether this is correct or not (and I know a listening watch on 16 is no longer required) merchant ships do talk to each other a lot on the radio about their relative positions.

Also whenever I have rights over a ship (which often ignore the regs and play bully tactics) if you shout loud enough over the radio at them they'll move (works better if in range of a coastguard).


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[Twister_Ken]

EX-DINGHY RACER AGREES TOTALLY. NM

Q

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[NigeCh]

2 blast and they wouldn\'t have understood

"These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels. " The Menai Strait is part of the sea ... It is not a river.

It is presumed that you are between buoys C14 and C11. The steep banks only begin to occur at C11 going SW otherwise it gradually shallows.

Forget Colregs for the time being as although they do apply in principle, in practice they don't apply as far as Plas Menai is concerned: Assume that you had a horn in the cockpit, gave 2 blasts and then tacked ... Nothing on the 505 would have changed as they wouldn't have had a clue what the 2 blasts meant as it appears they are only taught how to sail with no regard to Colregs ..... So had you applied Colregs, given 2 blasts on the horn and then tacked there would have been one almighty BANG and the insurance on the Menai Strait for all other users would have gone up by another couple of notches.

What you did by doing a 360 gybe was correct for yourself but didn't teach the 505 students anything.

Perhaps it's good to have arsehole teaching establishments to keep us upto scratch.



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[Benbow]

I am sorry but it’s a recipe for chaos. As Cornishman says, the problem is one of identification. Commercial shipping talks among itself by VHF under special circumstances especially when under control of a port radar who is telling everybody where everybody else is and where everybody is reporting in at specified points. There a listening watch on the port control channel IS required. Even then the conversation is usually confirming a normal and acceptable manoeuvre eg 'I would like to overtake on your port side' ..'ok I will stay up to the reds'.

As for preventing ‘bullying’ ! Well it will only apply in open water, then even if you can read the ship’s name they probably can’t read yours. They may be worrying about a VLCC 3 miles away that you can’t see and the view from the bridge is very different from the view from a cockpit. Personally, if I doubt that a vessel much bigger than me is able or willing to take avoiding action when I am stand –on vessel, I will do what the colregs require and take early avoiding action myself. Maybe I am being bullied, but I can live with that.


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[racingron]

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear. An example:

Delivering a Kerr 11.3 from Hamble to Torquay last September. I'm sailing downwind at night in around 25-30 knots with just the mainsail up approaching Portland in the dark. I'm making between 10 and 13 knots (down the waves). I see a starboard light on a ship (over 50metres) heading toward Weymouth perhaps 2 or 3 miles away. I'm stand on vessel displaying a tri-colour and taking closing bearings with my handheld compass - we're on a collision course. I also have various other small boats and fishing vessels in my vicinity.

I radio him up "this is the sailing vessel blah at position xyz, my course is abc and my speed is 12 knots, hailing the northbound merchant vessel approximately 2 miles away bearing blah from me"

I try this a few times with no response

Again on the vhf (he's still a good mile and half away) adding "I am the stand on vessel, please indicate your intention as we are on a closing bearing"

The ship changes course, if I hadn't kicked up a stink I would have had to take avoiding action too late, also how do I know that he's not going to move at the last minute? - a recipe for disaster. I don't think that this is being pigheaded. My only other safe option (without using the vhf) is to turn around 180 degrees and add at least half an hour to my trip or drop the sail, heave to and start the engine.

Having broadcast this on 16 I know that Portland coastguard know exactly what's going on and they'll also know the name of the ship and will intervene if necessary.

I've had similar incidents all over the world and I do not believe altering my course and ignoring the col regs is the way to play it. Ok if he really is going to mow me down I'll move - so far that's not happened.

In the open ocean using the vhf is just an excuse for some conversation on my part when we often haven't seen another boat for days.


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[Benbow]

In those circumstances I would first have shone my brightest light on my sails and at his bridge. In the past this has produced an instant response for me, I think that often we assume they have seen us when actually they haven'tt.

However I have to confess that in that case, if he hadn't responded it would be such a pain to have to come onto the wind and stop that I would have been tempted to do as you did. But to have taken avoiding action if you doubted his intentions would not have been ignoring the colregs, it would have been applying them. As you say in doing this you must allow for the possibility that he is about to alter course for you which limits your options.

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[racingron]

Cool.

The torch on the sail thing's good and also at the bridge, but he was a little far away when I first started thinking about it.

Happy sailing,

Ron.



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[Cornishman]

"I try this a few times with no response"

Probably because bridge to bridge communications are now carried out on Ch 13!



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