A few questions ref med sailing boat prep and batteries etc

[davethedog]

Morning all and we are starting to prep the boat for next year when we head to the med and have a few questions:

1. We currently have 2 x 180Ah Varta domestic batteries which I think are on their way out as dont seem to hold charge as long as they should. Am looking to add extra domestic batteries so the question is can I add to the existing bank or will it ruin the new batteries or do I need to just buy all new (inc replacing the existing batteries)?

2. Looking to install a salt water pump tap in the galley (to save fresh water consumption when washing dishes and avoid the need for a watermaker!), any recommendations and will I be able to use an existing through hull with a t piece (eg the heads inlet)?

3. What 12v fans for the cabins do people recommend? Quiet and reasonably priced if possible.

Thanks

DTD

 

[Graham376]

You won't ruin new batteries by coupling to tired rather than faulty ones. Batteries are generally cheaper and easier to source in the UK than many Med countries so, if yours are on the way out, better to replace before leaving. Trojans are favourite with possibly the majority of liveaboards. Obviously the larger the bank the better but not so large they can't be fully charged without shore power as repeated undercharging reduces life.

Had a saltwater pump on our last boat, teed off the heads inlet but had to install a non return valve in heads supply.

We use a 240v fan via small inverter. More powerful and quieter than the 12v ones we've tried. If your forward hatch opens to the rear, good idea to turn it around so it acts as a wind scoop when at anchor.

 

[RobbieW]

... Obviously the larger the bank the better but not so large they can't be fully charged without shore power as repeated undercharging reduces life....

Surely the charge requirement is a balance between usage, bank capacity and charging capacities of the various chargers ? It is useful to have an understanding of your use to help in speccing the sort of capacities that will help prolong your battery life. fwiw cruising in the Med we used c. 100a/day, charging from 200w of solar and a 100a+ alternator (and wind but thats not really useful in the Med). On a good day the solar would put 60a in and we built up a discrepancy over a few days, the trade off was motoring for a couple of hours every so often - not too much of a problem as Med cruising often involves not enough wind. For me the bank size is a function of depth of discharge and the ability to fully charge it again, I try not to discharge more than 20% (helped by having a large bank)

...We use a 240v fan via small inverter. More powerful and quieter than the 12v ones we've tried. If your forward hatch opens to the rear, good idea to turn it around so it acts as a wind scoop when at anchor.

We took some 12v fans but rarely used them. Buying a wind scoop for the front hatch made a much bigger difference, whichever way the hatch faces, and we also got one for the rear cabin hatch. Works at anchor, in a marina we also bought a scoop that tried to direct wind from any direction - that was less succesful, but we were rarely in marinas except over the winter.

 

[Richard10002]

Not answers to your questions, but things I wish I had had for my trip to Malta and back between 2006 and 2009:

Honda EU20i generator, (EU10i if weight is an issue and battery charger appropriate).

Rocna or other new generation anchor

Watermaker and aircon would have been nice to have luxuries.

A really good tender and a better means of launching it. With my time again, I would have bought a Honwave of appropriate size, perhaps with wheels at the back for beaching and such like.

Things I had that I would have missed a lot:

A good means of accessing 4G mobile broadband, and the knowledge to source appropriate SIM cards in the various countries to be visited.

Wind Scoop

 

[Yngmar]

Replace the batteries now, and increase capacity (and make sure you have something to charge them with, i.e. solar/wind). Yes it'll be a chunk of money, but it's so much easier to do this job in the UK than underway.

Never fitted the salt water pump, can't say I miss it. Only time we use saltwater is if we cook pasta/rice underway. Most anchorages the water isn't clean enough (= there's other boats around discharging god knows what) and it's not needed for pre-rinsing the dishes. What did pay off was a little bit of effort into training ourselves to preserve water. This doesn't mean going stinky (unless you want to). A watermaker would be nice to have, but so far not really worth the investment.

I wouldn't want anything from the heads side of the boat being pumped into my galley - they're separated by a hull and keel for good reason

We use this 12V fan. It's variable speed, low power and moves plenty of air. The actual clever idea here was to just tape it onto the air ducting that goes from the diesel heater all through the boat. Now it's permanently there where it is hardly heard and ventilates the entire boat with one little fan. At night it provides mosquito free air. Amazing.

You really want a bimini that you can leave up under sail. Teak decking gets stupidly hot until you can't sit/stand on it in the midday sun.

And make sure your fridge works properly. Nothing more annoying to fix than refrigeration problems underway.

We also turned our forward hatch around into scoop position. Great improvement.

Ubiquiti Bullet for long range Wifi has often provided us with free Wifi in anchorages (Hotels, town beaches, etc.) or made it possible to pick out the one working marina access point out of the 6 mostly broken ones. Where there is no Wifi, or it's too crap to bother (most marinas), the 4G stick with Three UK SIM card is doing well.

Make sure the crew is briefed on med moorings

 

[RupertW]

Not answers to your questions, but things I wish I had had for my trip to Malta and back between 2006 and 2009:

Honda EU20i generator, (EU10i if weight is an issue and battery charger appropriate).

Rocna or other new generation anchor

Watermaker and aircon would have been nice to have luxuries.

A really good tender and a better means of launching it. With my time again, I would have bought a Honwave of appropriate size, perhaps with wheels at the back for beaching and such like.

Things I had that I would have missed a lot:

A good means of accessing 4G mobile broadband, and the knowledge to source appropriate SIM cards in the various countries to be visited.

Wind Scoop

Interesting - 8 years into Med cruising (although alas far from full time) I wouldn't have most of those on my must have list, although all seem useful.

The first thing about Med sailing that struct us after decades in the UK is that you need much less not much more. The second is that you buy a boat to live outside on in shaded areas, and downstairs is for sleeping, cooking, showering and storing things. Getting out of your bunk to go on watch has none of the hassle of getting of sleeping bag, putting on under layers then overlayers then waterproofs and boots - it's basically push the sheet aside and go up in your boxers, maybe with a fleece at night.

And the same applies to all the complexity of stuff you gather on a UK boat - it all seems easier and simpler.

But optional things I would have are:

A good tender and way to launch - here I completely agree. A rib is a must for us for beaches and rocky landings and for decent rowing and motoring - with a lightweight engine (ours is a Torqueedo).

Otherwise it's a good fridge, decent shower and lots of shade so that you can live for many days independently if you want to. And an anchoring technique you learn to trust.

And finally as a great nice to have - a big downwind sail for those many light wind mornings where you have the time and inclination to avoid the engine for a bit.

 

[TQA]

1 Perceived wisdom is that if you run your batteries connected in parallel on and off charge mixing old and new is not good practice.

2 My salt water is T d off the raw water cooling intake.

3 I use Caframo 2 speed 12v fans very quiet and energy efficient. NB I would never run a 240 v fan unless I was on shorepower, inverters are not efficient.

 

[Tranona]

Agree with Yngmar about batteries. Buy new now and increase capacity plus means of charging. At the same time work out how to reduce usage.

Not sure of necessity for a seawater pump. If port hopping is your style of cruising fresh water supplies are not a problem. Better to increase water capacity rather than spend on a watermaker, which is a long way down the list after shade, fridge, good tender and strong anchoring gear.

 

[capnsensible]

Cheapest good quality batteries we have found anywhere have been in Gibraltar. Company is Marine Industrial Services.

On various boats across various seas and oceans I have found a stout builders bucket and lanyard more than adequate for use as shower/washing up/ dhobey bucket.

Never needed a fan. Not keen on the noise.

But thats just me!

 

[KellysEye]

Domestic batteries should be deep cycle such as Trojan they are longer lasting: http://www.trojanbattery.com/# they have both flooded and gel batteries, we had flooded.

 

[davethedog]

Thanks for all the advice and all food for thought and good aids to getting the boat prepped.

Have ordered some of the fans mentioned by Yngmar as they seem cheap enough so will see how they actually are.

We already have a bimini, davits and a built in 4kw generator which came with the boat fortunately, and we have an airdeck dinghy too with a 2.6hp OBM. We also have a decent cruising chute, as well as a brand new mainsail we bought last month.

Will look into a sea water wash pump for the galley sink and think we are going to have to purchase all new batteries I reckon, may leave that until later in the year.

DTD

 

[Richard10002]

Domestic batteries should be deep cycle such as Trojan they are longer lasting: http://www.trojanbattery.com/# they have both flooded and gel batteries, we had flooded.

I'm about to buy 3 x Rolls S160 12V 125Ah Flooded lead Acid.... just over £500 delivered UK from Tayna. If they do what the manufacturer says they will, and I am able to look after them, they should prove to be just a little bit better than Trojan T105s, and they fit my battery space better as well. We'll see how it goes over the next 3 to 8 years

 

[sailaboutvic]

I fully understand that rolls / mat / AGM take and hold a better charge and last longer 7/8 years but to me the sums don't add up .
We are 100% full time liveaboard,
We use normal seal lead acid batteries, last lot cost 120 euros a shot , my last lot last just under five years before one die not long after another one die so I ended up replaced them all , there been a change of boat since and the ones I have now are 18 months old and going strong , maybe I shouldn't talk too soon .

If these last me another five years or let's say four totally cost for five batteries over seven years 1200euros .
What would a set five 110Ah rolls/mat/AGM set me back I guessing a lot more then my 600euros a set and would they last the seven years , also what happen if by chance one died and kills the rest off in a short time ,
Just like a friend who had a power problem and in two years wiped out 2500 euros of batt, I would had lost 600 euros
How much what I have lost ifI just spend 500 euros per battery ?
Some one please point out where I wrong .

 

[Cariadco]

That was exactly the philosophy I followed with my Batteries.
I ran the boat with 2 x 130 AH domestics and one 135 for the engine (lead acid). Cost around 450 euros and they would last me just over 6 years. Always fitted good quality ones, either Bosch or Varta.
Never had any issues at all.

 

[vyv_cox]

Our experience is that something will always manage to destroy batteries far earlier than was hoped. Leaving the boat for half the year we have tried trickle solar charging, disconnecting completely and regulated solar charging at low rates but we rarely get more than three years out of a set, whether cheap or expensive. I buy open cell deep cycle if possible but have made do with closed cell dual purpose ones.

 

[Graham376]

Some one please point out where I wrong .

Totally wrong in the opinion of those who believe only expensive (whatever it is) is good but, many of us ask the same question and I think you're right. One pair of my T125s are discharging/charging quicker than the other bank, due I think to a bad charging regime from the old regulator on that bank. Only about 4 years old so, is it worth replacing with more of the same expensive or, just bung in 110ah leisure which will most likely last as long as I'll continue sailing? Leisure would be more cost effective but, wired in parallel with remaining T125s may not accept same charging parameters.

 

[Heckler]

Totally wrong in the opinion of those who believe only expensive (whatever it is) is good but, many of us ask the same question and I think you're right. One pair of my T125s are discharging/charging quicker than the other bank, due I think to a bad charging regime from the old regulator on that bank. Only about 4 years old so, is it worth replacing with more of the same expensive or, just bung in 110ah leisure which will most likely last as long as I'll continue sailing? Leisure would be more cost effective but, wired in parallel with remaining T125s may not accept same charging parameters.

My point as well, as I keep repeating my story, Numax Leisure 110amp, from Oswestry Morgans farm shop lasted 9 years. £80 ish at the time.
Stu

 

[capnsensible]

My point as well, as I keep repeating my story, Numax Leisure 110amp, from Oswestry Morgans farm shop lasted 9 years. £80 ish at the time.
Stu

Lovely to see an outbreak of agreeable commonsense on a thread! I reckon most of us who spend a lot of time or live on their boats are of similar mind. No point in splashing the cash on expensive batteries that dont do any more or last much longer.

Stand by the bucket as well, who wants to faff about with pumps n piping when a bucket does the job!!

 

[crisjones]

As others have said it is not the cost or quality of the batteries that determines how long they will last. It is the management of the batteries in terms of charging regimes and voltages, how often they are properly 100% charged, depth of discharge etc.
If you have a poor quality battery charger and you do not look after your batteries properly then you will ruin expensive batteries just as quickly and easily as cheap ones.
For full time liveaboards like sailaboutvic and ourselves then managing our batteries is part of our life and we both probably know more about battery charging than your average sailor. These facts mean that we are much more likely to get a long and happy life from our batteries than a "holiday" sailor for instance.
If you only use your boat intermittently and leave it unattended for long periods then it is very likely your batteries will suffer a short life - it is almost impossible to assure proper charging and management when you are not there, even the best programmable charger will not work if someone unplugs the shore power!!
As Vic and Stu both point out Leisure batteries can work perfectly well and can certainly be cost effective. The problems start if you need a fairly large bank that needs 4 or more leisure batteries paralleled together - then the batteries in the middle of the bank do not work as hard as the ones nearer the connection cables so the whole bank can quickly get out of sync. This means you need to rotate the batteries around in the connection plan to make sure they all do roughly the same amount of work over time. If you only have 2 or 3 batteries in your domestic bank then this is less of a problem.
We have 3 Rolls 357AH flooded batteries so just over 1000AH in total, this means we can go for long periods without any shore power - we never use shore power in the summer. We may not be able to do that with leisure batteries. Almost all our charging in the summer is from solar and our large battery bank means we can get through 3 or 4 days of cloudy weather without depleting our batteries - we rarely get below 60% SOC. We also have a large inverter fitted so the large bank was sized to match the inverter. The OP has a generator fitted (we do not) so some of these factors may be less relevant to him
As I said we know how to look after our batteries and they are now into their twelfth year and still have over 90% of the original capacity available so top quality, expensive batteries are not necessarily a waste of money. They are definitely a waste of money if you cannot look after them properly.
Solar is also an important factor, panels are now much cheaper than 10 years ago and so I would encourage anyone to fit as much solar capacity as possible to meet your needs. This alone will mean your batteries have a much easier life and will probably last much longer simply because the solar capacity means your batteries will be discharged less and are more likely to get fully charged regularly. Always use quality MPPT adjustable regulators for solar panels.

As always you have to consider the type and size of batteries as part of the overall power system of the boat and make sure the batteries match the needs of the rest of the system. You cannot fit battery X or battery Y just because Joe Blogs said it will work - you need a fully planned power system to match your needs.

 

[Graham376]

My point as well, as I keep repeating my story, Numax Leisure 110amp, from Oswestry Morgans farm shop lasted 9 years. £80 ish at the time.
Stu

Stu, Are you using sealed or open? There seem to be various types of Numax G.