dgadee
Well-known member
All the evidence across Europe is that boat ownership average age is rising. Where are these boat owning youth who are going to buy boats?
A fall in boat prices on horizon?
- Thread starter ashtead
- Start date
lustyd
Well-known member
I think we’ll see a split in the market. The young may end up buying boats because houses become entirely unobtainable so they’ll just give up trying and live aboard. This might actually be good for the boat market since they won’t have a home to pay for so for a while it’ll prop up the middle of the market and will appear that people have more money to spend.
I suspect that’ll lead to constraint for mooring and marinas which will eventually make boating unobtainable for those people too.
ashtead
Well-known member
I did think people might be locked into their current boats unless selling through infirmity or straighten financial situation and leaving aside costs of berthing while supporting the marina industry the step up to a new larger model seems hard to justify by virtue of extra space at a certain point so movement might be driven by a desire for something smaller and more nimble as even looking for a modest size increase seems as a% a massive step up. There is also quite a limited stock if looking for say a certain brand and size .
Tranona
Well-known member
I agree, particularly relevant as we are just in the process of re-writing our wills because all our grandchildren except one are now "adults" and working - one even owns his own home. Both our children are well established with their own homes and pensions. Very few people actually pay inheritance tax if they are able to make full use of their allowances which are around £1m. Even sharing that among 6 (2 children, 4 grandchildren) results in quite a big chunk for everybody. Many couples now in their 50's have 2 lots of inheritance coming from parents now in their 70's and 80's. It is the next generation that will have most needs and I am sure we are not alone in favouring grandchildren.
As others have suggested, the market works on supply and demand and the biggest problem in the UK is lack of supply - low numbers of new boats, particularly sub 12m coming in over the last 10 or 15 years and current owners keeping boats longer against relatively strong demand from a demographic which can still fund discretionary purchases.
lustyd
Well-known member
But most people don’t have a million to leave to their kids. There are very few people in the gap between leaving nothing and money is in trust and will never need to work.
Many of those who theoretically do have a million to leave will need to spend it on care in their later years since the government changed the rules a couple of years ago. The only way to avoid that is a quick death or money locked in a trust.
Many of those who theoretically do have a million to leave will need to spend it on care in their later years since the government changed the rules a couple of years ago. The only way to avoid that is a quick death or money locked in a trust.
Irish Rover
Well-known member
I recently bought an ex charter boat from Sunsail - I won't say it was cheap but it was definitely less than they were asking for equivalent boats 12/18 months ago. Most of the notifications I get from them are for price reductions.
dgadee
Well-known member
I have read about the transfer of wealth, too. But where are the younger sailors who are going to buy when they get the zloties? I remember in the 1980s that there were large numbers entered races all around Belfast Lough - of all ages - but those times have gone. There were also big yachts needing large crews. They all went a long time ago.
The situation seems to be plenty of dinghy sailors, but they give up when the leave school. They don't learn to cruise - time or no inclination? It can't be money because if you want to, there are plenty of really cheap boats you could get by with with a bit of elbow grease.
The situation seems to be plenty of dinghy sailors, but they give up when the leave school. They don't learn to cruise - time or no inclination? It can't be money because if you want to, there are plenty of really cheap boats you could get by with with a bit of elbow grease.
suffolklass
Member
*Waves*
Depends how you define youth, I hope we still qualify being in our 30s
But in all seriousness I think you're right and we're in a bit of a minority. Most people our age are either chartering or there seems to be a small cohort who have been inspired by YouTube to take up liveaboard life. Whereas we're in the more traditional position of having sold our original 19' trailer sailer and now saving up hard to buy a 30' ish boat for our young family. We were looking at moving up incrementally from a 19 footer to a 26 footer and then saving again to go bigger in the future, but at our end of the market (£15-20k) prices do seem to be going down - possibly reflecting the lack of interest from our age group! So now we've set our sights higher and are hoping that if we reach our goal of saving £20k we might just about be able to afford a Westerly Fulmar or similar, which is the type of boat we would happily keep forever. A couple of years ago £20k wouldn't have gone anywhere near even a tatty Fulmar, whereas now there are some on the market for £17.5k with replaced engines, albeit needing cosmetic wrangling. A Sadler 34 (another dream boat for us) in what looked like pretty good condition, with replaced engine and sails, and standing rigging renewed in 2023, recently went on the market in Scotland for £20k (and granted, it sold within 48 hours!). But still, it shows the direction of the market and boats are definitely not getting more expensive at the "slightly old and tired" end of the boat market!
lustyd
Well-known member
I think you’re assuming a lot there. While there are cheap boats around, most people are barely getting by these days. The government are talking about child benefits for household incomes of £100k. The vast majority in the country have nothing spare at all. I’m apparently in the top 1% of earners and can’t afford a nice house, drive a 10 year old Vauxhall and have a 20 year old boat. Times have changed drastically but the older generation are blind to the reality of the economy.
Watch Gary’s Economics on YouTube he explains a lot of this stuff really nicely, and as a former banker with two degrees he seems amply qualified to explain the subject.
suffolklass
Member
I think there's a dual thing going on here. A lot of people can't afford boat ownership, true. Mortgages eat up a lot of income. But at the same time there are a lot of younger people (often unattached or without kids) who are quite happy to spend their time going on adventure holidays all over the globe. I think that for those who could afford a cheap yacht, there are now other appealing options, such as chartering abroad, which give them more variety and less need for commitment to one thing forever, and that makes sense if you have 4 weeks holiday a year. We're looking to own a boat because we both get school holidays off, so we can invest a fair amount of time in sailing, whereas chartering works better if a) you've only got a week at a time or b) you like sailing one holiday, skiing or backpacking another.
So yes, for most people it's a financial thing, but I think there's a cultural change also.
Fr J Hackett
Well-known member
Maybe young people don't appreciate the joys 
of owning your own boat, the annual maintenance and mooring fees, Easter antifouling and polishing. It takes a special type of idiot that finds pleasure in owning their own boat, I speak as one such idiot.
of owning your own boat, the annual maintenance and mooring fees, Easter antifouling and polishing. It takes a special type of idiot that finds pleasure in owning their own boat, I speak as one such idiot.Tranona
Well-known member
"They" do. People like me in their 70s and 80s are living in houses that through no effort of theirs are worth £500k+ (just above the national average for a detached 3/4 bed) paid for years ago. Retired with inflation linked defined benefit pensions and savings from ISAs etc. Children, probably only 2 who have been financially independent for more than 20 years. Of course some will have changed partners along the way which has already shared out some of the wealth others will have spent a lot while they are still able to and yet others will have to use some of their wealth on care. However the unsung majority will be passing on substantial sums effectively tax free.
The only real question is how many of these recipients will choose to buy a boat rather than some other discretionary purchase.
mrming
Well-known member
Speaking as a Gen-X person I will attempt to inject some reality to this thread:
- Like another poster further up thread I’m in the top 1% of earners, and I can afford a normal semi detached house, a 2013 estate car, and a 1987 boat, kept in a drying marina.
- I have 3 siblings, and the vast majority of any inheritance will go on care.
- “Entry level” new boats are now pushing to £200k and beyond. It’s not out of the question that I might buy one later in life, but I have two kids to put through uni, so it seems quite unlikely.
- I happen to know that the new boats I would love to buy are marketed at “DINK”s. Double Income No Kids.
For the believers that “transfer of wealth” will create new boat purchases, the reality imo is:
- The kids you’re transferring to must already be very high earners or have no kids
- Or you’re transferring them a lot - well north of £500k each. (If I was lucky enough to receive £500k, the first thing I would do is nuke my mortgage, and then I would sort my kids’ future out.)
- Otherwise, assuming they’re into boats, they’re buying second hand like the rest of us (see suffolklass above).
- Like another poster further up thread I’m in the top 1% of earners, and I can afford a normal semi detached house, a 2013 estate car, and a 1987 boat, kept in a drying marina.
- I have 3 siblings, and the vast majority of any inheritance will go on care.
- “Entry level” new boats are now pushing to £200k and beyond. It’s not out of the question that I might buy one later in life, but I have two kids to put through uni, so it seems quite unlikely.
- I happen to know that the new boats I would love to buy are marketed at “DINK”s. Double Income No Kids.
For the believers that “transfer of wealth” will create new boat purchases, the reality imo is:
- The kids you’re transferring to must already be very high earners or have no kids
- Or you’re transferring them a lot - well north of £500k each. (If I was lucky enough to receive £500k, the first thing I would do is nuke my mortgage, and then I would sort my kids’ future out.)
- Otherwise, assuming they’re into boats, they’re buying second hand like the rest of us (see suffolklass above).
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Tranona
Well-known member
You are right. Very few wage slaves can afford to buy new boats, and that is nothing new, while they are working buying a house, bringing up kids etc. But when that stops the change is quite dramatic. It depends of course when you started and when you finish that phase. I had children when I was in my 20s and they were gone well before I was 50 and I bought my first new boat of any size and value when I was 55 as a DINK with a small mortgage. The biggest potential change comes between 60-65 when you can access pensions, particularly lump sum elements and hopefully most of the mortgage is paid off (and maybe an inheritance from your parents).
Of course not everybody is in this situation, but it particularly applies tp public sector workers - doctors, consultants, police, teachers, university lecturers like me, civil servants and so on, some of whom are lower paid when working but compensated by higher pensions. This sector is well represented in yachting in general and may choose to buy the boat of their dreams around (early) retirement time. I have not seen any recent figures, but when I bought my last new boat in 2015 I was more in tune with the market and understand that less than 1000 new cruising type boats were sold that year, not all of them staying in the UK. That was half of the volume 10 years earlier. Perceptions were that a far higher proportion were bought by retirees compared with earlier times.
I know care is an issue that worries people but it is a minority that actually needs high cost residential care for long periods. It is a balancing act trying to ensure you can afford care if you need it, spending while you can still enjoy it, and leaving something for your children.
I do know that none of mine will be buying a boat with anything I leave, nor do they covet my Morgan but will almost certainly find something else to spend it on for enjoyment
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dgadee
Well-known member
There is the problem. They may receive a transfer of wealth, but boating is now for oldies. We are dying off like pigeon fanciers. The young don't want pigeons and they don't want boats.
lustyd
Well-known member
They do that because they have no hope of anything else rather than the other way around. It’s a documented fact that generationally we’re getting worse and worse off.
Frogmogman
Well-known member
FWIW, I don’t find this to be true in France - the boat thing that is. I know a number of keen young boat owners, but then sailing does seem much more accessible over here.
As to pigeons the main interest in France would be in eating them…
suffolklass
Member
As a millennial, you won't find me arguing with the idea that we're worse off than our parents' generation! I'm just saying that the lack of interest in boat ownership is not *only* down to limited funds, it's also down to choices around what to spend those limited funds on. When people have spare cash they are tending to spend it on adventure rather than ownership (except where those two things coincide, as in the case of liveaboard YouTubers). We're a bit unusual, in that we'd much prefer to sail on the West coast of Scotland than in the Med or the Caribbean, and we want our own boat to do it in!
doug748
Well-known member
A lot of people did try to talk down the value of boats even when they were pretty low during the years c 2015 on. I recall one guy even saying he was going to hang on.....not for a cheap or even free boat but actually when people were offering cash for you to take them. I guess he is still out of the market.
On the whole though the running costs of a later boat, moored in a marina, are so high that I think anything but huge fluctuations tend not to mean a great deal once you have swallowed them.
Anyone buying a house, not over 3 years, but within the last forty years will have done well out of the investment so people will be retiring with a goodly sum well into the future. If they will want to spurge on a sailing boat is another matter, I agree with suffolklass that younger folk are used to spending time and money in a myriad of ways, and boats are a tie and commitment that many would not want. So, for me, no crash but the usual slow decline with the odd blip.
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mrming
Well-known member
If anything does inspire younger people to get into yachting it may well be the YouTube liveaboards. It’s very refreshing to see the hobby being presented in a new way, with not a pair of red trousers or a gilet in sight. 
