coopec
N/A
May be something useful here?
http://www.mademan.com/mm/5-best-single-handed-yachts-ocean.html
http://www.mademan.com/mm/5-best-single-handed-yachts-ocean.html
A boat for single-handing - 37'-40'? Lifting or twin keels? Rig? Sail drives?
- Thread starter Freeloader
- Start date
Ian_Edwards
Well-Known Member
As I said , each to their own, however, I think if you believe that the loss of performance caused by an in mast reefing system is small, then I think your missing trick or two.
Yes, it lets you change the sail area, but using the sail controls you can change the power of the main, outhaul, mast bend, leach tension, it's really easy to control a fractional rig.
With in mast reefing you normally lose the roach, battens and you can't bend the mast, because the reefing system will jam, which severely limits your control over the sail shape. As you roll tha sail away, you take out the forward part of the foil shape of the sail, destroying any shape the sailmaker manage to cut into it. You also have the possibility of the reefing system jamming.
I see little difference in the difficulty in controlling either option, but a significant performance advantage, in a conventional slab reefing fractional rig.
I know from sailing against similar sized yachts with in mast furling that my Southerly is about 15% faster to windward, i.e. about 1.5miles in a typical 10 mile beat. in my book that's significant, and she's no light weight flyer, over 16 tons on liftout at the end of last season.
However, I do agree with you on most of your other points, a small self tacking headsail, mines about 95%, which eliminates the need for winching when tacking, and allows a much closer sheeting angle. The sail areas on the Southerly 46RS are 58.98 m^2 for the main and 44.9 m^2 for the foresail, and if I'm seriously taking it easy, the boat will sail to windward very well under jib alone.
Yes, it lets you change the sail area, but using the sail controls you can change the power of the main, outhaul, mast bend, leach tension, it's really easy to control a fractional rig.
With in mast reefing you normally lose the roach, battens and you can't bend the mast, because the reefing system will jam, which severely limits your control over the sail shape. As you roll tha sail away, you take out the forward part of the foil shape of the sail, destroying any shape the sailmaker manage to cut into it. You also have the possibility of the reefing system jamming.
I see little difference in the difficulty in controlling either option, but a significant performance advantage, in a conventional slab reefing fractional rig.
I know from sailing against similar sized yachts with in mast furling that my Southerly is about 15% faster to windward, i.e. about 1.5miles in a typical 10 mile beat. in my book that's significant, and she's no light weight flyer, over 16 tons on liftout at the end of last season.
However, I do agree with you on most of your other points, a small self tacking headsail, mines about 95%, which eliminates the need for winching when tacking, and allows a much closer sheeting angle. The sail areas on the Southerly 46RS are 58.98 m^2 for the main and 44.9 m^2 for the foresail, and if I'm seriously taking it easy, the boat will sail to windward very well under jib alone.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
You seem to imply that securing a boat alongside a pontoon requires you to get off the boat. Lots of descriptions about dropping a spring on and motoring against it to stabilise the situation can be found in these forums. It’s what I always do whether I’ve got crew or not. If your berth is set up with correct lines already on the dock, you can fish them up with a boat hook and tie up without even getting off the boat.
In a few minutes I’ll be on a 45’ work boat that weighs about 50 tonnes. Usually skipper and one crew but I can manage singlehanded if necessary. No winches required and if you’re pulling on lines (with respect) you’re doing it wrong. No bow thruster either... I appreciate the boat I’m about to work on is different but the principles the same. You can get away with a push and a shove and a tug on a line on a smaller boat. You need to get the techniques right on larger vessels.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately drawn up by somebody who does not have a clue what they are talking about!
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I recognise what you say, but I don't want lots of bits of string to pull. I want predictable easy to use performance. I know all about what you say, but made a conscious decision, first because my old boat was used as a charter boat and then because I was satisfied with it, chose it for my new boat. I have never in 17 years had a sail jam. You just learn how to use the gear (not difficult).
I will, however say that I probably made a mistake in sticking with the standard cheap sails, but having already exceeded my self imposed limit it was a choice of a bow thruster or the better sails. In practice windward performance meets my expectations (which is more important to me than beating somebody else) and the weakness of the rig is offwind, hence the purchase of a furling cruising chute.
As I said earlier it is the overall package of the boat that matters and I chose the combination that suited me.
Phildorset
Well-Known Member
Have you looked at Ovni's? lifting centreplate and rudder (hydraulic, easy and reliable), beachable, tough - but not pretty for long, they aren't built to be fast but they do just fine, we had one and loved it... one of the few boats I'd be keen to buy again.
Topcat47
Well-Known Member
Finger pontoons in marinas are frequently shorter than the boats being berthed and using a single spring is Not an option, especially when there is no "cleat" on the end of the pontoon. You can't always find a vacant "tee".
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I’ve experienced plenty of finger berths shorter than our boat. I don’t remember many occasions when it wasn’t possible to drop a spring on or get one on pdq to motor against. Sometimes it has to be from the bow, but my preferred option is the midships cleat.
Phildorset
Well-Known Member
My 'faves' are the little sinky fingers with only a loop of aluminium on the end to pass a rope through... no cleat... near impossible to do a decent arrival on if alone or with inexperienced crew - even assuming you can balance on the thing when you hop onto it... Cherbourg used to have them, might still?
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I agree that you either need crew or one of those thread the line systems on a pole for those. But the OP was talking about his home berth.
Freeloader
Well-Known Member
The discussion in the recent posts has been interesting. The pontoons at Cobbs Quay are certainly shorter than the boats in them but they do have plenty of well-spaced cleats. Interestingly, though, there does not seem to be any real consensus as to whether to moor bows-to or stern-to. I would be interested to know the pros and cons of each.
However, having had a look around the pontoons, it looks like boats of 40'+ are likely to be a bit of a handful to berth single-handed. Whilst the interior volume of larger boats is still attractive, I think it will have to be something <40'. There is a nice looking Bavaria 37 for sale in the yard.... I think, perhaps, I might just try to find a sail-training place with a suitably-sized boat and give it a go first.
However, having had a look around the pontoons, it looks like boats of 40'+ are likely to be a bit of a handful to berth single-handed. Whilst the interior volume of larger boats is still attractive, I think it will have to be something <40'. There is a nice looking Bavaria 37 for sale in the yard.... I think, perhaps, I might just try to find a sail-training place with a suitably-sized boat and give it a go first.
doug748
Well-Known Member
"Whilst the interior volume of larger boats is still attractive, I think it will have to be something <40'"
I always think you have to have a very good reason for buying a boat at the top end of your requirements, so good thinking in my view. Marina berthing is at it's easiest on a boating forum and getting off a pontoon, from a standing start, is often the tricky bit.
Here is an interesting shallow draught boat:
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/b76418/b76418.htm
The Catalina does not get a very good press but they look well on the water and are roomy. You would need a bow thruster, and anchor winch, and no doubt it wants a few bob spending on it.
I always think you have to have a very good reason for buying a boat at the top end of your requirements, so good thinking in my view. Marina berthing is at it's easiest on a boating forum and getting off a pontoon, from a standing start, is often the tricky bit.
Here is an interesting shallow draught boat:
http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/boats/b76418/b76418.htm
The Catalina does not get a very good press but they look well on the water and are roomy. You would need a bow thruster, and anchor winch, and no doubt it wants a few bob spending on it.
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TangaraToo
RIP
At home berth we prefer stern to as the 389 has a full width bathing platform that is pontoon height when lowered. Great for getting on and off. When visiting other places it varies. The 389 is quite a wide boat at the stern with twin wheels and throttle / bow thruster controls on starboard side. Due to this I prefer to put her starboard to as i can keep a close eye on the pontoon. Often not a lot of space if two wide ass boats. 240v hook up is also right at stern so easier if stern to. Conditions also play a part. She blows off very quickly and wants to point downwind in the slightest breeze. Each entry to a berth is a compromise based on conditions, space, side to etc. I have no hard and fast rule about stern or bow to as doing so can result in gelcoat repairs.
Freeloader
Well-Known Member
Thank you again to everybody who has contributed to this thread - your insight and very detailed replies have been very much appreciated! Thank you also to 'Tranona' for meeting me in Poole and showing me around his very lovely new Bavaria!
I have spent a few days looking around at what is available and I think that I may have to accept that lifting or twin keel boats are just too few and far between to exclude fin keel boats from my shortlist. Having said that, there are 'deep fins' and 'shallow fins' available and I would therefore be interested to know how they compare. Anecdotally, I understand that >2.0m draft is getting a bit limiting for Cobbs Quay...
I have spent a few days looking around at what is available and I think that I may have to accept that lifting or twin keel boats are just too few and far between to exclude fin keel boats from my shortlist. Having said that, there are 'deep fins' and 'shallow fins' available and I would therefore be interested to know how they compare. Anecdotally, I understand that >2.0m draft is getting a bit limiting for Cobbs Quay...
Loopy
Active Member
That's the real question. No amount of furling gear/autopilots/electric winches are going to reduce the distance from the wheel to the bow when it's time to turn into a tight slip...or when it comes time to back out of that slip into a fairway with other boats. Our 38' fits our 40' slip bow to stern quite well, but it's 12'8" beam against a 14' slip always makes for an adventure trying to get in and out when you account for the width of fenders, wind, etc so that's another consideration, perhaps the bigger one.
My personal opinion is that in the market for a singlehanded boat I wouldn't be shopping much above the 34-36 foot range simply because of the above issues.
Can't speak to main sail furling as ours is a traditional stack pack. However, the boat came with a massive 150 genoa that is very easily overpowered when fully unfurled. Anytime the wind gets north of around 10 knots, my first "reef" is to furl the headsail around 20%-30%. Performance and balance in that configuration with an unreefed main seems pretty good. Sail shape, well, that's another matter.
Sail drives are reliable, a little quieter, and quite a bit more maintenance intensive. For instance my Volvo 120 sail drive cannot be fully serviced unless the boat is hauled and put on the hard...or at least out of the water on a sling. The gasket preventing water intrusion around the sail drive is recommended to be replaced every 5-7 years at a cost of several thousand dollars as it cannot be accomplished without lifting the engine off its mounts, or so I've been told. If I had to do it again, I would prefer a traditional drive on a boat but as manufacturers like them as it outsources warranty responsibility they are reality.
Cactus Sailing
Well-Known Member
Shallow keels tend to not point to windward as well as the full fin, but this depends greatly on boat design, equally how close to windward do you want to get
maybe you can live with that.shallow keels being shorter can get places fin keels can't / have larger tide windows to get in the usual places
it all depends where you want to sail, as you've found anything over 2.0m comes with added complexity but isnt impossible just takes more planning and working with the tides.
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Topcat47
Well-Known Member
Still does unless you get an end pontoon at the Tee. It's bad enough with a 26'er but there are 36'ers moored on the same trot.
Topcat47
Well-Known Member
Re shallow keels, There was a trend to have shallow wing keels. a couple of club mates have the Spring 26's with just such keels. The are quite competitive on Wednesday night round the cans. It's not my scene and I don't compete so I have no personal opinion.
Freeloader
Well-Known Member
Well, some good news... I have had an offer on my old boat and so I am now properly in the market. However, as many of the boats for sale are on the South coast and most of them in the Solent, can anyone recommend a good surveyor and would it be a good idea to get the motor / saildrive looked at separately by an engineer? If so, any suggestions as to who?
Actually, I might start a new thread for this...
Actually, I might start a new thread for this...
contessaman
Well-Known Member
Apologies if I missed it and its already been said, but I couldn't see anywhere you mention what kind of sailing you intend to do with the boat? That would be the biggest factor in my choice.
Of the singlehanded sailors I know, a fair few of them barely take the boat out but when they do its huge passages like the Azores and back. Another exists to sail the boat up to the west coast of Scotland once a year.
So are you looking for a boat for offshore work or coastal cruising with the odd channel crossing?
Of the singlehanded sailors I know, a fair few of them barely take the boat out but when they do its huge passages like the Azores and back. Another exists to sail the boat up to the west coast of Scotland once a year.
So are you looking for a boat for offshore work or coastal cruising with the odd channel crossing?
