A boat for single-handing - 37'-40'? Lifting or twin keels? Rig? Sail drives?

[Freeloader]

To cut a long story short, I used to sail but the growing family were not keen and so we moved on to motor boats. I have done that for a while but the kids are now heading off to university and I'm thinking of going back to sailing. Having had a brief look around at the used boat market, the most common boats seem to be fin keel versions of Jeanneaus, Beneteaus, Bavarias etc. Some of these are also available with lifting keels but I have also seen twin keel versions of Marlow Legends that seem to offer good cruising accommodation, easily handled rigs and reasonable performance. For starters, I have four key questions...

1. I have got used to the space and creature comforts of our 42' motor boat and so I would ideally like to get something with a similar internal volume. A Marlow Legend 40 seems to have a similar layout, whilst the Marlow Legend 37 comes close but sacrifices the second head and some aft cabin space. However, would boats of this size be too much of a handful to regularly single-hand - both in sailing terms and when backing into a tight marina berth?

2. I keep my boat in Poole and, whilst I have had a fin-keel boat in the past, my subsequent lift-keel boats were all better suited to the shallow harbour. I did find, though, that once a lifting keel was partially raised, there was not much lateral grip (even when motoring) and swing-up rudders were similarly ineffective when not in the fully down position. I've never owned a twin keel boat and few manufacturers still seem to build them but modern twin keel designs such as the two boats above do seem to get good reviews - at least they appear better all round than the shallow fin option. Should I try one of these or are there better lifting keel alternatives?

3. I have had masthead rig and fractional rig boats but have only ever had slab-reefing mains with furling head sails and, even then, I have not relied on a single furling head sail - rather, I had a selection of head sails and simply chose the one most appropriate to the conditions, just using the furling system to temporarily stow the sail. Most modern boats seem to have relatively small furling head sails and so I take it that, in a blow, they will only require a few turns of the furling gear and so should still keep a reasonable shape and perform adequately. However, how do the relatively larger main sails perform with in-mast furling? Despite there being some loss of sail area, this looks very convenient for single-handed sailing but does the sail keep any reasonable shape / performance once more than a turn or two is put in the furling gear?

4. Lastly, many modern boats seem to come fitted with sail drive units, rather than conventional shafts. I was hoping to get away from the complications and expense of stern-drive maintenance but the sail drive units look like just another unnecessarily complicated answer to a simple question. How reliable are these units and what is the likely annual servicing cost for the drive and motor, assuming that I were to use a franchised dealer?

Any comments or observations on the above will be gratefully received

 

[Concerto]

You seem to be wanting everything in one boat. Single handing on a boat with the space of a 42 ft motor boat? If you want to single hand then once under way it is easy on any sized boat, but the first and last couple of hundred meters are the most difficult times in any journey. Larger boats are more difficult to handle in close quarters than smaller ones.

As boats become larger, then twin keels becomes rarer as there is less of a need for drying moorings and a preference for marina berths. In Poole are you in a marina, if so then forget twin keels. Shoal draft or lift should be your choice. Add Southerly's to your list of choices with their lift keels.

Most yachts now have a furling genoa as standard as it is easy to use and set quite well in all conditions. Some modern yachts have self tacking jibs to reduce the effort of sailing to windward. Mainsail furling is a different question, but hauling a mainsail up can be a struggle every time you go sailing. Furling mains do have poorer performance than conventional mains, so it is your choice. With a conventional main I would have it fully battened with a stack pack and slab reefing.

Generally a masthead rig is easier for most people to handle. Fractional rigs require more complex rigging adjustment and have larger mainsails.

Very few modern boats have shaft driven propulsion as a sail drive is easier for a manufacturer to fit. The main service point is the hull seal needs changing after about 7 years. My question would be more on which engine manufacturer should I consider as Volvo do have very expensive spares.

It is a daunting choice returning to sailing, if you sort your questions into a better set, then you will good advice from the forum.

 

[Skylark]

I’m sure you’ll get many, often contradictory, views and opinions............here’s mine.

1. I fairly regularly sail my 41ft Beneteau single handed. Lot’s of close quarters practice helps (and a bow thruster). My biggest issue is mainsail handling, particularly putting it away. I can see the advantage of an in-mast furling main.

2. I have no experience nor interest in lifting or twin keels so can’t comment.

3. Not all new boats have relatively small headsails, mine doesn’t, for example. As a cruiser, when in a blow with reefed headsail I’m generally not overly worried by shape, more concerned for comfort so happy to be reefed. My boat has slab reef main and a very high boom. Reefing is not really an issue but as I commented in point 1, putting the thing away (neatly) is hard work and in-mast reefing is starting to look quite attractive.

4. Saildrives are a great piece of design but generally poorly engineered into a boat. Personally, I find it simply rediculous that Yanmar has 5 year and Volvo 7 year hull seal change frequency yet the product is not engineered for easy maintenance. Changing the seal is a major undertaking. The engine and gearbox need to be parted, engine moved to give access to remove the saildrive. By any measure, this is a big job. There are many stories of boats not having the seal changed for well over 10 years but what if yours is the one that fails at 5 years and 1 day?

Yanmar has a double seal with moisture sensor between them. Annual service includes removing the sensor for testing. It’s very fragile looking and after 12 months is well and truly stuck in position. There’s a high risk of damaging it upon removal. Another good design feature poorly engineered, imho.

Otherwise, their annual maintenance is not overly onerous. The Yanmar SD50 is anecdotaly the Achilles Heel of the range. It employs cone clutches and these need to be re-lapped from time to time, hardly routine maintenance, another example of poor engineering. This box has to be bathed in oil with lots of additives which add exclusivity and hence rip-off cost. Unwise to not follow their recommendation, though. This product has now been replaced by the SD60 which seems to have addressed the issues of its predecessor. Yes, I have an SD50. I’ve spent a lifetime in automotive engineering so I’m not impressed with it.

 

[Tranona]

I also sail in Poole and have very similar requirements to yours, although rather than coming from a lux MOBO, I had for many years a 37' Bavaria in the Med. Now Med days are over and have swapped for a slightly smaller Bavaria 33 which is kept in a marina in Poole. Some observations responding to your questions and my reasoning for choosing the boat and spec. It is a new boat so I specced it for my needs.

Small jibs. Definitely better for single handing as windward performance is better and tacking much easier. I regularly tack up and down the harbour and reefing not needed until well into F5. Downside is poorer performance off wind, but have just bought a cruising chute on a furler which will hopefully improve this.

In mast furling. Had this on the previous boat and would not be without it. Easy to handle the big sail and make small adjustments to size rather than limited to just 3 or 4 pre determined sail sizes. All sail handling done from the cockpit. Ultimate performance is not as good as a fully battened sail, but "real" performance in cruising terms little difference overall. Perhaps wish I had gone for the performance sail, but not a real must have.

Draft. Toyed with the idea of a lifting keel (Jeanneau 33i or Benny 31) but close to £10k extra. In reality on this size of boat and the bigger ones you might look at, drying out is not really something you would want to do regularly, so the only real issue is access to shallower harbours and rivers. Again, size sort of limits you, but you can get round most of Poole channels with a fixed keel if you plan carefully. I compromised by having the shallow (1.5m) keel. A bit like in mast, there is a small loss in potential performance but it does open up a bit more of the shallow parts of Poole and the Solent. On my boat the shallow keel is also longer on the base so drying against a wall is easier.

Boat handling. Really 2 issues here. First is ergonomics when under sail. Being able to handle everything from the cockpit and move freely from behind the wheel is a must. Placement of winches, mainsheet and sail furling lines is very variable from boat to boat. Single wheel boats often do not have enough clearance to walk round the wheel without getting on the side benches but twin wheel boats are generally better. Many boats have the mainsheet on the coachroof which is not quite as bad as some people think, but having it close to the wheel is better. Many recent boats have the German mainsheet system which is good in this respect. The second issue is parking the boat and here a bow thruster is a big plus, along with good astern steering. Most modern boats, particularly those with saildrives are good in this respect. Organizing your home berth mooring lines and berthing strategy so you can tie up without jumping off the boat is valuable. Having a remote for the bow thruster can be a help here bringing in the bow if it blows off for example.

Saildrives. These have been in use now for over 35 years in virtually unchanged form. Follow the guidance on maintenance and protection and they are virtually trouble free. The seal replacement procedure is again not as bad as some suggest. It costs around £1000 and takes a day if the boat (and most are) is laid out to allow good access. Not a big expense every 7 years compared with other costs of running a 40' boat. Worth getting a folding or feathering prop and a rope cutter. Just to balance the story my previous boat also had a Volvo saildrive and was used for 7 seasons as a charter boat in Greece being used by an average of 15 different skippers a year and doing 3500 hours. The engine was completely trouble free, just oil and filter changes, but the drive did fail and cost £3k to replace. Rather annoying, but in the whole scheme of things not such a bid deal.

You don't say what your budget is or whether buying new or used, but being partisan I would suggest looking at the more recent twin wheel Bavarias, the 37 in particular is a good blend of easy handling and space. To be honest though there is not a lot to choose among the major brands as they all aim at the same sort of market. The important thing is to be clear about what is important to you (not so easy if you don't have a base to work from) and you will probably find the right boat chooses itself. One problem you may encounter is a lack of boats on the market at the moment if buying used and the low value £ rather limits buying in Europe.

Hope this helps and feel free to ask any more questions.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Just to add to Tranona's point about in-mast furling, and sail shape compromises - I too bought a new Bavaria with in-mast. I went for the performance rig option, a few quid more but the boat does sail very well (for a cruiser).

Agree ref twin wheels for ease of movement, but... one point that I'm still finding a bit of an issue is the placement (on my boat) of the throttle, low down on stbd side. Inaccessible from port wheel. So manoeuvring into a port-side-to berth has to be done from the stbd wheel. I've practiced a lot and it's mostly OK now but something to watch out for,

 

[TQA]

I single hand a 44 ft cutter.

A good and reliable autopilot is essential.

I like my cutter rig and on the rare occasions I need to tack upwind I roll the genoa away and carry on with staysail and main.

I agree that berthing in a tight space is testing. If I had to do it on a regular basis i would fit a bow thruster. If I had a permanent berth I would fender the berth including a V shaped fender held horizontal that I can nestle the bow into and leave the boat in forward at tickover with the rudder over to hold it in place while I sort out the mooring lines.

 

[Norman_E]

As TQA says a good and reliable autopilot is essential. I single hand a Jeanneau 45.2 which is not the ideal boat because the genoa winches are a good distance from the helm, however single handed tacking is quite possible, and I do it regularly, using the autopilot tack function. It just needs the correct technique which is to set the lazy sheet round the winch in advance and put the free end over the cockpit table. Set the autopilot to tack mode then press the appropriate direction button to start the tack. Move forward to the working sheet winch, picking up the end of the other sheet as you go, wait for the boat to get head to wind and release the working sheet and pull in the new working sheet as quickly as possible. I can usually get enough of the sheet in by hand so that very limited winching is required. It helps if the autopilot puts the boat through the tack fairly slowly. When mooring in the Med you go in stern first and again pre planning is is the key, with stern lines ready to throw and the boathook at hand to pick up the lazy line if the anchor is not being used.

Most Jeanneau boats that I have seen have shaft drive, though I cannot speak for the latest models.

 

[Topcat47]

My how the other half do live. I regularly single hand my 26'er and do without double berths, showers, second heads, in mast reefing. I don't want them either. My experience single handing boats is that you shouldn't have anything you can't step off onto marina pontoon. Coming alongside you need to be able to secure the boat yourself. The bigger the boat the more difficult that is. You can have a power windlass for an anchor but a motorised method of tying up alongside has yet to be invented and there isn't always someone ashore to take your lines.

 

[Tranona]

My how the other half do live. I regularly single hand my 26'er and do without double berths, showers, second heads, in mast reefing. I don't want them either. My experience single handing boats is that you shouldn't have anything you can't step off onto marina pontoon. Coming alongside you need to be able to secure the boat yourself. The bigger the boat the more difficult that is. You can have a power windlass for an anchor but a motorised method of tying up alongside has yet to be invented and there isn't always someone ashore to take your lines.

Well, sorry to disappoint you but many of us have been doing what you seem to be saying is impossible for years. You are right, though you don't need a bigger boat, but if you have the money and appreciate what it buys you then why not? For years I had the same size boat as you. Did I enjoy it - yes! When I first bought a big boat, did I enjoy that? Of course yes, and in addition my wife came sailing with me, which was a bonus. My latest boat is a compromise, not as big, but set up so that I can, and do, sail it safely without any assistance.

Your last sentence is just plain wrong. The objective is to be independent of others as you can't rely on them or in some cases control them, but be grateful when you do get assistance from competent others.

Perhaps you should crew for me across to Cherbourg in September so you can see how the "other half" live!

 

[Phildorset]

I'm another Poole sailor, and for my solo sailing have chosen a 25' twin keel Django (French, modern, simple and fairly quick), for me it's the simplicity and easy handling, plus the ability to dry out and/or get into shallow anchorages etc. I fully appreciate that this is more basic than most are willing to go for, but it's a great alternative to the downsides of bigger boat sailing... Maree Haute also make larger versions & with various keel choices, but perhaps still to purposeful (by which I mean simple interiors). I've found that beyond a certain point, my enjoyment starts to suffer as the size of boat and it's complexity increases.

 

[Topcat47]

Your last sentence is just plain wrong.

OK exactly what form of motorised tying-up-alongside aide do you have? I was fortunate to cadge a lift last year from Dom of this parish. I'm fully aware of how a properly equiped 50'er can be handled well by a single person at sea. I'm no longer a spring chicken and it was rather a long way down from the deck to the pontoon. Nothing I said implied it was wrong to accept assistance form someone ashore, if they were about. If I get over this year, we can talk about what can go wrong if you do, though.

 

[Freeloader]

Thank you to everyone who responded to this thread and for all your very detailed responses - it is very much appreciated

If I understand your replies correctly, would I be right in summarising the answers to my four earlier questions as follows:

1. Single-handed sailing is not, of itself, a problem - more of a question of cockpit layout. Single-handed berthing into a marina berth, though, could be more challenging and would benefit from a bow thruster. Despite their complications, do I take it that sail drives may actually make steering astern easier than with a shaft drive, presumably due to being mounted further forward?

2. I'm looking for shallow draft, not necessarily for drying out completely but for the ability to sail and anchor in relatively shallow water. Deep fins, therefore, are not my first choice but, from what I understand, twin keels are at least as good as shallow fins and so it is a choice between twin and lifting keels. Pros and cons to each but, even with a lifting keel partially raised, they are both probably going to draw about 1.5m.

3. It seems to be a thumbs-up to in-mast furling for ease of single-handing, even if at a loss of absolute sailing performance. Likewise smaller and / or self-tacking jibs.

4. With regard to sail drives, if there is genuinely an advantage when manoeuvring in astern, I would certainly not rule them out in favour of a shaft drive. As ever, it appears that regular maintenance is the key. However, I would be interested to know how much an annual service is likely to cost and whether a sail drive can be serviced in the water (I realise that the boat needs to be out to remove / re-fit the propeller and change the anodes).

Thanks again!

 

[Freeloader]

Incidentally, I am going to be down in Poole this weekend for a few days and so will have a look along the pontoons to get some ideas!

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Yes to your Q1 about saildrives and reversing. Much material on here and elsewhere as to why. Boats with twin rudders eg Southerly can be awkward as it's all-but impossible to get a flow of water across the rudders unless you're moving.

Servicing, standard checks and oil change / top up etc is from internal of course, but changing the seal is a boatyard lift job. Would make sense to combine it with scrub and anodes etc.

 

[Tranona]

Looking for a shaft drive will limit your choice severely in modern boats of this size. To me it would not be a deal breaker either way as most modern boats go backwards well, irrespective of drive type with the proviso that in general you tend to get less prop walk with saildrives. There are much more important things in a boat. Servicing is minimal. The engine is the same, the big anode on the drive needs inspecting regularly but tend to last well in the latest types. Mine has been in the water continuously since August 2015 except for 2, two week periods and is less than half worn. Will replace it next winter. Oil does not need replacing every year and lower housing seals only need replacing if there are signs of milkiness in the oil. Otherwise replace when the main hull seal is replaced as on many boats it is easier to get the drive out if you remove the lower housing and shaft.Post 2006 volvos have 2 part anodes so the prop does not need removing. Some props gobble anodes, irrespective of saildrive or shaft, but standard saildrive props usually last well with no maintenance.

You will find virtually no twin keel boats in this size range, or even many less than 25 years old of any size. Although Legend offered them they actually sold very few, and most were in the smaller sizes. Equally you will find few lifting keel boats as Feeling have sold few in recent years and Beneteau and Jeanneau sold mainly smaller size boats. You don't say what your budget is but Southerly are worth looking at if you have the money.

Quite a few models from most builders have a shallow keel option with drafts of 1.5-1.8 rather than the 2m+, although again usually in smaller sizes except the Jeanneau DS range which often has a shallow keel as do some Beneteau 36 models. Think you have to accept that mainstream buyers of this size of boat do not buy them to cruise in shallow waters so accept the limitations of deeper keels.

You don't say where you are looking in Poole, but happy to show you around Poole Yacht Club where there is a fair number of boats of the type you are looking at. Send me a pm if interested.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

You will find virtually no twin keel boats in this size range, or even many less than 25 years old of any size. Although Legend offered them they actually sold very few, and most were in the smaller sizes. Equally you will find few lifting keel boats as Feeling have sold few in recent years and Beneteau and Jeanneau sold mainly smaller size boats. You don't say what your budget is but Southerly are worth looking at if you have the money.

Marlow had a twin keel boat (a 41 I think) at Southampton in 2015 that we nearly bought. Like a Legend with the mainsheet arch. Very nice, aft cabin, good finish too. I wanted a better deal than they were willing to offer.

EDIT: Actually I think that was a Legend.

 

[Tranona]

Marlow had a twin keel boat (a 41 I think) at Southampton in 2015 that we nearly bought. Like a Legend with the mainsheet arch. Very nice, aft cabin, good finish too. I wanted a better deal than they were willing to offer.

EDIT: Actually I think that was a Legend.

Yes, it is a legend. Hunter went broke partly as a result of trying to make twin keel boats in the UK. Marlow have taken over the brand and continued to produce some of the older designs, but most are now new. Far too expensive for the European market. Their 31 was on my short list until I saw it!

 

[Ian_Edwards]

Whilst I agree with most of the above, good autopilot, bow thruster (which I view as essential), all controls close to the wheel, and a good furling head sail, I would add that a self tacking foresail makes life so much easier, and when you get the combination of a 40ft plus boat and advancing years, electric winches are a real bonus.

However, I wouldn't have an in mast furling system, it's really does affect the performance to windward. I have 3 slab reefs with all lines led back to the cockpit and that works well for me.

I don't think that there's much difference between a masthead rig and a fractional rig, the fractional rig is more tunable, you can usually bend the mast and flatten the sail, to make the rig more efficient as the wind increases, and using a combination of back stay tension and kicking strap you can put off the point at which you need to reef the main and improve boat speed, but then I like tweaking the bits of string.

I'm now in my 70's and sail a Southerly 46RS single handed, even when I have others on board, she's big and comfortable, 6 berths and two heads, a good sea galley and an inside steering position. I have no problem getting people to come sailing with me and they usually come back for more, booking regular slots. I usually do a couple of trips up to the Orkney Islands, Cape Warth, Pentland Firth etc each year, and have never had a problem. And of course the Southerly's lifting keel allows access to anchorages you wouldn't get fin keel 46 ft boat anywhere near.

Coming alongside in a marina can be a bit stressful, but careful planning and getting the boat organised with all the mooring lines and fenders ready is the key. I haven't too many problems, but a won't attempt an up wind pontoon berth a strong cross wind single handed, unless I can be sure of having a competent person on the pontoon to take my lines.

I enjoy sailing, not motoring, so I wouldn't be interested in a boat that won't go well to windward ..... each to their own!

 

[Freeloader]

Thank you again to everyone for their contributions - it is all very helpful.

Tranona, I will send you a PM regarding the Yacht Club.

 

[Tranona]

I don't think that there's much difference between a masthead rig and a fractional rig, the fractional rig is more tunable, you can usually bend the mast and flatten the sail, to make the rig more efficient as the wind increases, and using a combination of back stay tension and kicking strap you can put off the point at which you need to reef the main and improve boat speed, but then I like tweaking the bits of string.

I enjoy sailing, not motoring, so I wouldn't be interested in a boat that won't go well to windward ..... each to their own!

That is not my experience at all. It is a question of the overall balance of the design of the boat and the way you use it. what little you may lose in windward performance you more than make up with ease of handling and crucially the ability to infinitely adjust your mainsail area to suit the conditions rather than being limited to fixed mainsail areas. This is particularly important with recent designs which have smaller headsails and larger mains.

It is not necessarily whether the rig is masthead or fractional as many fractional rigs these days are almost masthead. What matters from an ease of handling and windward performance is the relative size of the jib, particularly when tacking in tight situations. This is where the current 100% or so jibs, some self tacking score over older rigs which had large overlapping headsails. The difference between my current boat and the last which although the same displacement and sail area had a 120% genoa is remarkable. More close winded, hardly needs winches when tacking and much better balanced - all of which makes sailing easier and more enjoyable.