8mm chain with spliced 3 core on Lewmar windlass, need more nylon

[PaulRainbow]

ok, i ordered rope and chain from one of the main UK suppliers and asked them for advise
they supplied LIROS 12mm anchorplait nylon and 6mm Chain
that runs out just fine, rope jams (video) on the way back in

It will jam, you have no fall on the rope and you're just pushing it round and round the gypsy.

The only way you'll get that setup to work is to a) use all chain, or b) be at the bow when hauling the anchor and pull the rope into the chain locker from beneath. You don't need to pull hard, just keep some light tension on it and it will work fine. My last boat was a similar arrangement and was certain to jam more often than not, i used to stand at the bow, open the locker, keep some tension on the rope and operate the windlass with a cheap winch remote from Ebay, never failed. Once you get to the chain you should be OK.

 

[simonfraser]

It will jam, you have no fall on the rope and you're just pushing it round and round the gypsy.

The only way you'll get that setup to work is to a) use all chain, or b) be at the bow when hauling the anchor and pull the rope into the chain locker from beneath. You don't need to pull hard, just keep some light tension on it and it will work fine. My last boat was a similar arrangement and was certain to jam more often than not, i used to stand at the bow, open the locker, keep some tension on the rope and operate the windlass with a cheap winch remote from Ebay, never failed. Once you get to the chain you should be OK.

the fall makes no difference, only showing it like this for clarity
the loose weave of the rope catches on the capstain and is no good at all

 

[PaulRainbow]

the fall makes no difference, only showing it like this for clarity
the loose weave of the rope catches on the capstain and is no good at all

3 strand nylon will be no better.

As i said, i anchored a similar boat (Merry Fisher 805) pretty much every weekend for several years, the only reliable way i found to retrieve the rope was as i described.

A sailing yacht with a deep anchor locker (more fall) may be a different story.

 

[Neeves]

You have me confused, but then I have a very simple mind

Your vid is too short or it does not illustrate what you are doing.

I thought you were having problems with a mixed rode and a gypsy. Now you seem to be saying the rope slips on the capstan. If the rope is not round the capstan for a number of turns (and kept under tension) then of course it will slip.

Most modern gypsies will accept chain and rope (but you need the correct size of chain, the correct size of rope and a matching gypsy) - you don't need to use the capstan - the chain feeds through the gypsy and when you get to the rope section the gypsy is designed to 'grab' the rope in one continuous feed (the capstan is a red herring - it is used under different conditions and for different reasons). On retrieval the rope should be 'in' the gypsy - leave it there. The gypsy will quite ha[ppi;ly accept the rope, the splice and the chain.


My interpretation is that you are retrieving the rope with only a half turn round the capstan. If I have this correct then your practice is wrong.

Deploy the rode so that you have deployed some rope. Now simply reverse the procedure and if everything matches for size then the gypsy will retreive the rope and automatically - or without a pause - retreive the chain

Jonathan

This our 6mm Maxwell gypsy (when new) - It accepts 6mm chain and rope (not sure of the size as we don't use rope). The gypsy has pockets for each chain link and teeth to allow it to hold and retreive the rope. Your gypsy should look something similar. It will deploy or retrieve a mixed rode, like yours, without a pause. So on retrieval, it would 'grab' the rope, accept the correct splice, and without a missed beat transfer to retrieving the chain - one continuous process. All you need to do is keep the windlass lifting/retrieving the anchor.




We don't have a capstan on our windlass. Our windlass is below the deck and the capstan would need me cutting a hole in the deck and introducing a big trip hazard - and our decks are almost trip free (and I want to keep it that way as anyone on the boat is barefoot . ). We also have 6 winches that can be used for rope - we don't need another (and they add to the cost of the windlass).

This, below, is what our windlass looks like when assembled and yours should be similar - yours with the capstan on top.

As an aside: On the centre line of the gearbox/motor (1,000 watt) on the left hand side is a see through plastic nut - which allows for gear box oil inspection, and replenishing if necessary. The windlass can be dismantled for servicing by removing the cir clip at the bottom of the shaft, twist the big, back knurled knob and it 'falls apart' allowing checking the oil and greasing the shaft - simple.




But I may have completely mis-interpreted what you are doing - in which case apologies.

J

 

[simonfraser]

ah Jonathan, me confusing a capstan with a gypsy
i have a gypsy as shown in you last image, the rope part is wound half way round on the aft part of the gypsy
and then gets caught in the corrugations of the gypsy

from the posts related to this it looks like some ropes work and some dont
i dont want the weight of 60+ m of 6mm chain in the bow and value the eleasticity of rope

will do some trials with rope not as stiff as nylon and not als loosely weaved and sloppy as the multiplaid i have now

 

[Neeves]

ah Jonathan, me confusing a capstan with a gypsy

Not a problem Simon - sailing terms can be a bit convoluted (winch, windlass, capstan.......?)

One route you have not mentioned:

Ask Lewmar.

Its their windlass, you are generating a good deal of bad press for them - I hope they have an answer. So send them a link to the thread and ask for advice (and let us know).

I'm in no way suggesting Lewmar are at fault - it might be the stripper has not been installed correctly (and sitting here in Sydney, with a nice bottle of red wine, it is late in the day, and not knowing the windlass - I cannot come up with a better answer or other options). But not long ago an acquaintance had a problem - and it was quickly diagnosed by the windlass manufacturer as being incorrectly installed - and to be the stripper (simple stuff).

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

I contacted a well known chandlery in the UK. I wanted a sample of Maggi G40 and Maggi G70 chain, only about 200mm length, as part of my test programme and I wanted to also test a Maggi 8mm Omega link. I was visiting the UK and ordered the 3 items and had them delivered to our daughter, based in Manchester. I had to pay for the 2 chain samples and Omega link. I did not open them in the UK but simply put them in the suitcase. The Omega link was 10mm and they sold me for 2 samples of G40, not G40 and G70. I was pleased I had not ordered 100m of G70

I was not impressed (and maybe should have checked before I got back to Oz). It had nothing to do with the money - it was simple lack of attention to detail.

The reality is chandlers don't, cannot, know everything about everything. I'd contact the manufacturer - they should know, they have more at stake.

Hence my suggestion. I have had good contact with the executive at Lewmar who is responsible for Oz and I can only expect/hope that he is representative of the team.

J

J

 

[simonfraser]

tnx J, have emailed lewmar

 

[Neeves]

Simon,

Thinking further and clutching at straws

The only thing you are doing that is different, to normal, is that you are using your windlass with 8mm chain, not the 6mm or 7mm recommended.

I know this has worked for you, and apparently others, but that does not mean it is working correctly.

I wonder if forcing the gypsy (aka a chain wheel ) to accept the 8mm has caused burrs to develop in the gypsy, or between the 2 plates of the gypsy, and if these burrs are grabbing the fibres of the rope and locking the rope into the gypsy.

With considerable caution, make sure the windlass cannot start, run your fingers gently round the jaws of the gypsy, take the chain out first, and see if it is all smooth or if it is rough and nasty (such that it catches the skin on your fingers). If it is rough and nasty then that may be the problem. Just remember that a member of AC/DC lost a finger in a windlass - be careful!

If this is the problem then I think you need to take the gypsy off, usually its very simple, and rub down the facing plates with an abrasive paper - until smooth, so start with a coarser paper and then move to finer.

Once the gypsy is all smooth - re-assemble and try again with anchor plait (not the chain)

And change the chain to 6mm or 7 mm as specified

I know that your boat is not close to home - but the weekend is coming up....In the interim run this past Lewmar.

Good Luck

Stay safe, take care

Jonathan

 

[PaulRainbow]

Simon,

Thinking further and clutching at straws

The only thing you are doing that is different, to normal, is that you are using your windlass with 8mm chain, not the 6mm or 7mm recommended.

I know this has worked for you, and apparently others, but that does not mean it is working correctly.

I wonder if forcing the gypsy (aka a chain wheel ) to accept the 8mm has caused burrs to develop in the gypsy, or between the 2 plates of the gypsy, and if these burrs are grabbing the fibres of the rope and locking the rope into the gypsy.

With considerable caution, make sure the windlass cannot start, run your fingers gently round the jaws of the gypsy, take the chain out first, and see if it is all smooth or if it is rough and nasty (such that it catches the skin on your fingers). If it is rough and nasty then that may be the problem. Just remember that a member of AC/DC lost a finger in a windlass - be careful!

If this is the problem then I think you need to take the gypsy off, usually its very simple, and rub down the facing plates with an abrasive paper - until smooth, so start with a coarser paper and then move to finer.

Once the gypsy is all smooth - re-assemble and try again with anchor plait (not the chain)

And change the chain to 6mm or 7 mm as specified

I know that your boat is not close to home - but the weekend is coming up....In the interim run this past Lewmar.

Good Luck

Stay safe, take care

Jonathan

He is not using 8mm chain.

"ok, i ordered rope and chain from one of the main UK suppliers and asked them for advise
they supplied LIROS 12mm anchorplait nylon and 6mm Chain "

Still worth checking the gypsy though.

 

[Neeves]

Simon said at the outset he was using 8mm chain, or thought it was 8mm chain. I think you reinforced the possibility by saying this specific windlass with its gypsy (and it only has one gypsy) would accept 8mm with problem - I don't recall I think you had personal experience of both the windlass and knew that 8mm worked well. I confess that the idea of a gypsy accepting both 6mm and 8mm on the same gypsy seemed - unusual. But you are the man on the spot - so it must be correct.

Later Simon said the had ordered a rode from a well known distributor and it was 6mm - I assumed this was new chain and rope - or he would have said at the outset that his chain was 6mm (as he would have remembered ordering it). He also said he was using 3 ply and, what I considered was a new rode, was anchor plait

If he was using 8mm chain, oversize for the gypsy, they it might have damaged the gypsy - remember we are clutching at straws here - all the obvious reasons have been considered, thrashed to death - with no resolution. I can only base comment on what has been posted and that was originally 8mm and then (and maybe all along - but not my interpretation) 6mm.

Jonathan

 

[PaulRainbow]

Simon said at the outset he was using 8mm chain, or thought it was 8mm chain. I think you reinforced the possibility by saying this specific windlass with its gypsy (and it only has one gypsy) would accept 8mm with problem - I don't recall I think you had personal experience of both the windlass and knew that 8mm worked well. I confess that the idea of a gypsy accepting both 6mm and 8mm on the same gypsy seemed - unusual. But you are the man on the spot - so it must be correct.

Later Simon said the had ordered a rode from a well known distributor and it was 6mm - I assumed this was new chain and rope - or he would have said at the outset that his chain was 6mm (as he would have remembered ordering it). He also said he was using 3 ply and, what I considered was a new rode, was anchor plait

If he was using 8mm chain, oversize for the gypsy, they it might have damaged the gypsy - remember we are clutching at straws here - all the obvious reasons have been considered, thrashed to death - with no resolution. I can only base comment on what has been posted and that was originally 8mm and then (and maybe all along - but not my interpretation) 6mm.

Jonathan

I initially said that the gypsy was designed for 6mm or 7mm chain, but i had seen one used with 8mm chain, which didn't fit very well, bit it did function. When i pointed this out to the owner he immediately changed the chain and no harm was done.

We don't know for sure what Simon was using (although he thought it was 8mm) , he has never confirmed. But he has now stated he has purchased 6mm.

In post #28 you say "The only thing you are doing that is different, to normal, is that you are using your windlass with 8mm chain, not the 6mm or 7mm recommended. "

Post #29 is simply drawing to your attention the fact that he is no longer using 8mm chain (or whatever it used to be), whilst agreeing with you that it would still be worth checking the gypsy for damage.

 

[simonfraser]

Simon said at the outset he was using 8mm chain, or thought it was 8mm chain. I think you reinforced the possibility by saying this specific windlass with its gypsy (and it only has one gypsy) would accept 8mm with problem - I don't recall I think you had personal experience of both the windlass and knew that 8mm worked well. I confess that the idea of a gypsy accepting both 6mm and 8mm on the same gypsy seemed - unusual. But you are the man on the spot - so it must be correct.

Later Simon said the had ordered a rode from a well known distributor and it was 6mm - I assumed this was new chain and rope - or he would have said at the outset that his chain was 6mm (as he would have remembered ordering it). He also said he was using 3 ply and, what I considered was a new rode, was anchor plait

If he was using 8mm chain, oversize for the gypsy, they it might have damaged the gypsy - remember we are clutching at straws here - all the obvious reasons have been considered, thrashed to death - with no resolution. I can only base comment on what has been posted and that was originally 8mm and then (and maybe all along - but not my interpretation) 6mm.

Jonathan

Hi Jonathan, I def owe you a beer or two ?

I put some standard New 3 core mooring rope through the existing gypsy, that ran in and out no prob, but see the pic below
on close inspection the ridges are indeed damaged inside the gypsy
i then borrowed a gypsy from some one in the yard, yes I did ask first !
and ran only the multiplait through that, no probs ?

so def a damaged gypsy, why did Lewmar or Jimmy Green not at least point me in that direction ?

anyway will get the emery paper out first and possibly the wallet later

yes the boat came with what looked to me 8mm chain and rope

 

[PaulRainbow]

Hi Jonathan, I def owe you a beer or two ?

I put some standard New 3 core mooring rope through the existing gypsy, that ran in and out no prob, but see the pic below
on close inspection the ridges are indeed damaged inside the gypsy
i then borrowed a gypsy from some one in the yard, yes I did ask first !
and ran only the multiplait through that, no probs ?

so def a damaged gypsy, why did Lewmar or Jimmy Green not at least point me in that direction ?

anyway will get the emery paper out first and possibly the wallet later

yes the boat came with what looked to me 8mm chain and rope

View attachment 126417

That three strand certainly shows that the gypsy is damaged, might be a job for a Dremil ?

Good call from Jonathan on that.

 

[Neeves]

That three strand certainly shows that the gypsy is damaged, might be a job for a Dremil ?

Good call from Jonathan on that.

This is the first time a mystery has been resolved so easily and the forum members got the answer.
You can buy little rasps in sets that fit into a drill. One of the tool shops will have them or you can buy them on line. They really are not expensive. They fit into a normal battery drill, or corded drill. A Dremel is probably the way to go - but not everyone has them. I bought mine from eBay and also bought a set from China, they are as close to idexntical as you can get. They come in sets of 5, or mine did, different shapes. Don't be too aggressive - you just want to remove the burrs - not make a new gypsy.

In all the years of being a member of YBW I have never heard of your problem before and not many people would use an 8mm chain on a gypsy for 6/7mm - I think its an unusual issue. I would have said that it would be impossible for 8mm to retreive on a 6/7mm gypsy - but we learn every day.

Try to 'polish' up the existing gypsy they cost a fortune and if a windlass is old it is often simply better to buy a new windlass.

So start with the rasps and then use something a bit finer, emery paper. I actually don't think it will be difficult - except maybe your gypsy is miles from where you are.

If there is a lesson hidden in here - use the chain size and specification recommended by the manufacturer.

The new rope you have should then work well in the polished gypsy. If you question the rope's integrity - use it as new mooring lines (as you use multiple mooring lines) - and buy a new length for the rode.


Your 6/7mm - I forget which - chain might not accept the shackle you used with the 8mm chain and also fit the anchor. I mentioned this on another thread - go to the local chandler that sells CMP product, Titan chain and Rocna anchors. Titan make 2 shackles - a yellow pin and black pin. They come in small sizes and one will fit. Buy the Black pin shackles, not the yellow pin shackles. They are not as good as Crosby shackles - but there is nothing else. Buy the biggest shackle that will fit the chain, pin through chain, bow through anchor.

I don't normally recommend CMPs shackles because I don't think their QC procedures are up to scratch and the WLL for their shackles is Imperial not metric tons (this latter is a small thing - but there is something slightly questionable in selling items marked 2t which means 2 short tons when being sold in a metric market). Sadly Crosby's good shackles have 3/8th" as the smallest in their range - and it will be too big for 6 or 7mm chain.

There are other options - but it then gets a bit complex to source.

Any queries - post and I'll try to help

- and post how you get on, I'm interested.

Jonathan

 

[differentroads]

My south pacific windlass did that with 8mm chain and 14mm 3 strand nylon. I renewed the chain, a lot longer, to get rid of of the rope. Octoplatt? rope that behaves a bit more like chain may work but a lot of windlasses won't grip a softer rope.

Great thread so far.
Last week I spent a happy afternoon trying different splices to get my South Pacific horizontal windlass to handle 14mm octoplait spliced onto 8mm chain, both spliced into the chain and backspliced into only the last link. It handled the line perfectly but I could invariably jammed at the splice when retrieving. The SP manual asserts that you have to use a backsplice on fairly stiff 3 strand line. It seems to me that they're right. I suspect the 3 strand line will end up in an unholy tangle in my too-shallow anchor well, though, whereas the octoplait flakes impeccably.

 

[Neeves]

I know - I'm boringly repetitive.

If you retreive rope into your locker and then pile the chain on top then the rope is a 'reservoir' or store of salt laden moisture. As the rode sits quietly in your locker the water in the rope will evaporate and condense on the chain and locker walls continually maintaining your chain in a damp environment. The inevitable result is that your chain will corrode more quickly than if this source of water was removed from the proximity of the chain. Short term this is irrelevant but over years your chain may need to be replaced or re-galvanised during your lifetime of ownership. Rope in the bottom of the locker also hides what might be a puddle, exacerbating the issue, caused by a blocked locker drain hole.

These are yachts at a boat show, imagine what they might be like with a bit of use ......

But would you buy a yacht from a dealer who offers this attention to detail?








Washing the locker and contents with fresh water every time you wash the decks is a good move - and if its raining leave the locker open (it should drain freely).

Ideally, whatever the method of construction of the rope, you need to try to separate rope from chain, drag the rope out of the locker before you start to retreive the chain, coil the rope separately and hang such that the rope can air. (by 'hanging' it might need to be 'strung' horizontally).

Coil the rope with make it less bulky (for 3 strand you need to introduce a reverse twist to stop it hockling.

I appreciate this is a real faff - which, all of this, is part reason why many have abandoned a mix rode for all chain - and all chain is so easy top retreive.

One factor in chain 'choice' is that there is a strong tendency to have over large linked chain and a full rode of larger linked chain than necessary will be very heavy. The link size then needs to be comparable with the gypsy and buying a gypsy to accept smaller chain is a significant financial investment - so once you have the 'big' gypsy you are strangely focussed at using what you have. If you are buying a new yacht or replacing windlass it merits consider whether you are using the appropriately sized chain.

Stay safe, take care

Jonathan

 

[simonfraser]

yep washing out the locker and gypsy, when ashore on a trailer is def worth doing

k, i cleaned up the metal rucking on the outside edge of the gypsy, only issue i could see & made no difference to the octoplait, still hung up and jammed
so in my experience octoplait just not suitable and i don't understand why this is on the Lewmar site

i bought a test section of 12mm Nylon from these guys (no connection) and that wore much better than the similar looking blue rope i tested earlier in this thread, both go down the windlass hole into the locker no issue

so have ordered a very long section, more than i need and can just chop of an end bit if it wears too much, massive chain locker so storage no issue

 

[differentroads]

....I don't normally recommend CMPs shackles because I don't think their QC procedures are up to scratch and the WLL for their shackles is Imperial not metric tons (this latter is a small thing - but there is something slightly questionable in selling items marked 2t which means 2 short tons when being sold in a metric market)....

Great advice on this thread, as always, Jonathan. Thanks. Just a small point though.

This morning I got delivery (in Spain from Amazon) of a couple of 5/16'' yellow pin Titan shackles for my 8mm anchor chain. The breaking load is marked as 9900lb (4.5T) - see photo. 9900lb = 4490kg, so 4.5 metric tons, not short tons. Unless I'm mistaken, which I frequently am. The website says the same as the label.

Once proved to work with my anchor, chain and the anchor boomerang I'm going to have made, I intend to replace these with Crosby rated shackles or Titan black pin according to whats available to me in Spain. Any of those options will be better that the no-name 10mm shackle that distorted in just 30kn wind this summer (I think it got flipped back over the anchor's shank)

 

[differentroads]

yep washing out the locker and gypsy, when ashore on a trailer is def worth doing

k, i cleaned up the metal rucking on the outside edge of the gypsy, only issue i could see & made no difference to the octoplait, still hung up and jammed
so in my experience octoplait just not suitable and i don't understand why this is on the Lewmar site

i bought a test section of 12mm Nylon from these guys (no connection) and that wore much better than the similar looking blue rope i tested earlier in this thread, both go down the windlass hole into the locker no issue

so have ordered a very long section, more than i need and can just chop of an end bit if it wears too much, massive chain locker so storage no issue

Thanks for feeding back on your progress with this.

I'm facing a similar problem - wanting to add 50m rope to my chain rode but my horizontal windlass always jams at the octoplait rope to chain splice. Was your nylon 3 strand rope spliced to your chain when it went through the windlass ok? If so, was it spliced along the chain or backspliced through only the last link, which my windlass manufacturer says to do?

 

[simonfraser]

Thanks for feeding back on your progress with this.

I'm facing a similar problem - wanting to add 50m rope to my chain rode but my horizontal windlass always jams at the octoplait rope to chain splice. Was your nylon 3 strand rope spliced to your chain when it went through the windlass ok? If so, was it spliced along the chain or backspliced through only the last link, which my windlass manufacturer says to do?

Was your nylon 3 strand rope spliced to your chain when it went through the windlass ok - yes, backspliced