3rd year still learning to sail

[Supertramp]

You won't learn unless you try things, and I think you did well. Sometimes things don't go as planned - I have set off from Pwllheli in light winds and encountered fearsome seas in the tide races due to swell and overalls.. I might enjoy it but the family don't. Better to have a good idea of how to cope than to become fearful of trying.

 

[chris-s]

Sailing from Red Wharf Bay to Bangor the wind picked up to around 20mph gusting more and I was close hauled and reefed the main sail.
I seemed to struggle to sail as I was against the tide and the sea was so lumpy I kept getting knocked off course. Was i doing something wrong or was it just the wind and tide against me making it difficult the boat is a cobra 850 bilge keel. At times the bow was going under water as the boat was slamming up and down.

made it to Porth Penrhyn finally.

Sailing a similarly sized light 23’ bilge keeler, in those types of conditions we take assistance from the engine (Tohatsu 6hp) to help drive us on. Keep the sails up, reefed whilst comfortable.

 

[TSB240]

Google Image Result for https://www.moelfrerowing.org.uk/sites/moelfrerowing.co.uk/files/inline-images/swelliestideflow1.gif

Have a look at this tidal flow chart created by my father and a great uncle many years ago

I am guessing that you left Red Wharf Bay at or near High Tide. Unfortunately this would have meant that by the time you arrived off Puffin lighthouse the ebb was in full flow with no respite for 4 hours. Puffin with full ebb and the long fetch of a south easterly would be pretty uncomfortable and breaks rule 1 for going around Ynys Mon.
1. Always try to go with the flow.
Rule 2 always go with the wind.
Rule 3 iif you can go with both if you can't stick the donk on!


If you think it was rough think how much rougher it would have been if you had the tide with you!

We are usually passage planning from Traeth Bychan or Moelfre (fin keel) to go through the Swellies at or just after slack. If we plan to sail against the wind we would probably leave Moelfre about an hour or two after local low water. This usually gives a good reach across RWB arriving off Puffin within an hour. You get a very big lumpy sea through Puffin Sound with tide under you and wind against. But only for a short period as you eventually arrive at a point where the flood from the South meets the flood from the North.

Staying with the waters meeting can give a smoother ride against the wind down to the Swellies arriving at or just after slack water.

I think our donk usually gets a work out from Beaumaris through to Felinheli if the wind is against us. The Admirable threatens either having me sectioned or divorce otherwise!

Have you tried towing your dinghy backwards with the stern hitched up to your pushpit. I found this very effective in our previous under powered 30 footer in the sort of conditions you encountered. Personally I find a towed inflatable a liability rather than an asset in the confines of the Menai cut especially in 20 knots of wind.

Steve

 

[William_H]

Beating to windward in a sail boat really requires every thing working to best advantage. Yes I would say towing the dinghy would slow you down when beating a lot. Beating in to waves will also slow a light weight boat down. Then when reefed you need sails really flat and that means everything tight. Sloppy reefing is ok until you are beating. And then if you are bucking a tide well you just have that negative SOG effect. So I would say you did well considering all the negatives of the boat for the job. (especially bilge keels)
More experience on your part might improve the boat set up. Certainly you have gained experience as to wht you and the boat can achieve and what you can't do. ol'will

 

[Dutch01527]

I am of the school of thought that my boat has two means of propulsion, sails and a engine. I will use whichever combination is most efficient in a given set of circumstances. If that means motoring or motor sailing so be it.

A very experienced old sailor I used to crew for had a saying “if Nelson, Cook or Drake had an engine available they would have used it in these conditions”

 

[Poignard]

I hesitate to suggest it in case I am trying to teach the OP to suck eggs but sailing too close to the wind in such conditions results in excessive leeway and that depressing feeling that you're not getting anywhere.

Better to bear away a bit and let her pick up some speed.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Going on our own experience, sometimes ypu might be better off not making so much ground. We being west solent based, we have a fair bit of tidal experience. At least with the tide against you the water is a bit smoother as a rule. We can get a decent vmg if it’s rough, but the spray will be coming aft like bullets, the boat will be nearly airborne, the toilet unusable (we reef if oh needs a wee). Back off, it‘s meant to be fun, is what we have learned.

Have you tried heaving-to for a toilet stop, (or for reefing?)

 

[dunedin]

I am of the school of thought that my boat has two means of propulsion, sails and a engine. I will use whichever combination is most efficient in a given set of circumstances. If that means motoring or motor sailing so be it.

A very experienced old sailor I used to crew for had a saying “if Nelson, Cook or Drake had an engine available they would have used it in these conditions”

Except that bashing upwind against the tide can be painful even under engine - sometimes even more so than under sail (we have on a number of occasions overtaken under sail boats which were motoring directly upwind).
IMHO always better to go a different direction or to go a different day/time than to motor into wind, seas and tide.
Old seamen recognised that patience was an important element of seamanship.

 

[Ingwe]

With a tender out the back you stand no chance beating into waves anyway, but one of the most common mistake sailors make is trying to point before they gain speed going upwind, without speed the foils (keel) don't work as efficiently and your leeway goes up so even though the bow of the boat is pointing high you are going sideways, so if there is ample wind you should keep the bow down slightly until you build the speed up and then gradually come up as the speed builds close to hull speed. In waves you also shouldn't have everything sheeted in flat, you need some twist in the sails to gain power to punch through the waves and also a slightly looser sheeting angle so that you can steer through the waves and aren't constantly being pinned at a set angle by the sails in the gusts.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Have you tried heaving-to for a toilet stop, (or for reefing?)

Just slowing down seems sufficient. And you certainly don’t need to to reef. Drifting towards a start line hove to on starboard is standard multihull practice, we don’t need much of a run up. Heaving to is straightforward when we want to.

 

[johnalison]

With a tender out the back you stand no chance beating into waves anyway, but one of the most common mistake sailors make is trying to point before they gain speed going upwind, without speed the foils (keel) don't work as efficiently and your leeway goes up so even though the bow of the boat is pointing high you are going sideways, so if there is ample wind you should keep the bow down slightly until you build the speed up and then gradually come up as the speed builds close to hull speed. In waves you also shouldn't have everything sheeted in flat, you need some twist in the sails to gain power to punch through the waves and also a slightly looser sheeting angle so that you can steer through the waves and aren't constantly being pinned at a set angle by the sails in the gusts.

In a similar vein, another mistake people make is in trying to sail to the apparent wind angle, whether from a Windex or meter. Around 30 degrees can be fine if things are going well but if the boat speed is checked by a wave, then the wind angle increases, tempting the inexperienced to turn into the wind instead of carrying on or easing the sheets.

 

[Rhylsailer99]

I hesitate to suggest it in case I am trying to teach the OP to suck eggs but sailing too close to the wind in such conditions results in excessive leeway and that depressing feeling that you're not getting anywhere.

Better to bear away a bit and let her pick up some speed.

Yes it was a learning curve and I figured out in the end I was wasting my time. But being a novice i doubted myself and kept thinking i was doing something wrong.
Thanks for all the comments,. I have read them all carefully and learnt a lot from this experience., especially that going from Red Wharf Bay to Bangor and thinking I can do it to my mooring is near impossible. I have managed the Journey in reverse with the tides flowing in the right direction but made the mistake of thinking small tides would be ok . What makes me laugh now is looking back at when i got hit by a wave and my boat tacked on its own oops, I had no option but to just go with it but enough was enough so the motor was on in the end.

 

[William_H]

Re beating to windward under sail. A water speed meter or GPS if you can account for tide can be very useful in checking your sailing (heading) results. So boat might have a hull speed ( or typical sailing speed free off the wind) around 6 knots so when you are sailing to windward in lots of wind you should be looking at around 4.5 knots. Any less and you are pinching too much (pointing too high) any more and you are not pointing high enough. A really useful check but you will have to determine good numbers for your boat and doesn't work in light winds. ol'will

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Instrument wise I find VMG to windward the most useful. It's what tells you it’s time to try motorsailing.

 

[johnalison]

Instrument wise I find VMG to windward the most useful. It's what tells you it’s time to try motorsailing.

That is true, but it requires a lot of concentration to make good use of it. I am lucky enough to have a water speed log, which is my prime source of information after the back of my neck. Although I watch the sails, wind angle and water, in rough conditions I find it easiest to keep a consistent speed, which is usually about 6 kn. If I see it creep up to 6.4 I know that I need to bear up a little. A GPS could do much the same but less precisely. My system will also give VMG to waypoint, which can be handy, though I don’t often use it.

 

[geem]

That is true, but it requires a lot of concentration to make good use of it. I am lucky enough to have a water speed log, which is my prime source of information after the back of my neck. Although I watch the sails, wind angle and water, in rough conditions I find it easiest to keep a consistent speed, which is usually about 6 kn. If I see it creep up to 6.4 I know that I need to bear up a little. A GPS could do much the same but less precisely. My system will also give VMG to waypoint, which can be handy, though I don’t often use it.

I use VMG to waypoint if going hard upwind.
I found it very useful for 48hrs relentless slogging in 2m seas. It allowed me to fine tune everything to make the best progress to our destination. It proved that on our boat, bearing off a little and going for more speed when it's bumpy got us there faster.

 

[johnalison]

I use VMG to waypoint if going hard upwind.
I found it very useful for 48hrs relentless slogging in 2m seas. It allowed me to fine tune everything to make the best progress to our destination. It proved that on our boat, bearing off a little and going for more speed when it's bumpy got us there faster.

Often the VMGs to waypoint or wind are almost identical, but I find it more useful as a learning tool than something to sail to. One can't really generalise, but I found that in smooth or less arduous conditions the best VMG was made when sailing much close than I was accustomed to, with the jib luff almost lifting, but the best results were only obtained with very careful sailing and a very light touch on the helm, so for passage-making it was easier to sail a more moderate course.