3rd Reef in Main?

[prv]

Kemp are pushing a 4th reef for their offshore cruising sails [...] (who's got that many sheaves anyway?).

Sheaves for four reefs plus outhaul in my Selden boom on a Maxi 34. Seems a bit keen, as she's really not a heavy-weather boat in other respects. Old sail only had two reefs, new one has three (but I haven't rigged new lines for the third yet) and I have no intention of having a fourth.

Pete

 

[Amulet]

Surely this is a matter of how far apart your reefs are. For Amulet I asked the sail-maker to put two reefs in the main but put the deepest at the normal position for a third and the first at one and a half, if you see what I mean. I lose a bit on granularity of adjustment but have less string flying around. There's a lot more experienced heavy weather sailors on here than me, but my untutored opinion is that if you want a fourth reef you'd probably have done just as well with three spaced out a bit more.

 

[Twister_Ken]

If it gets that bad I'd be wanting to just point downwind with only storm jib

But there might be rocks downwind... or pooping!

 

[Babylon]

Sheaves for four reefs plus outhaul in my Selden boom...

Now that's a question: my old Kemp/Selden boom has sheaves for only two reefs (plus outhaul).

So, once I've got my sail altered for a third reef, what would the most sensible setup?

If I left the first two reefing lines where they are (clutches under the gooseneck, so have to go forward anyway), how would I tension the third reef leach cringe down and aft?

 

[Deleted member 36384]

(who's got that many sheaves anyway?). .....

A five sheave boom end is not that uncommon: reefs 1, 2, 3; clew outhaul; flattener. The flattener sheave could easily be used for a 4 reef if one was inclined. I think 3 reefs (or the 2 where the upper reef is at the 3rd reef point) is sufficient.

There was a thread a while ago on the exact opposite that a deep 3rd reef for coastal sailing was redundant and that a better spacing for 2 reefs for performance sailing would be more efficient. The argument was that most coastal sailors will not be out in rough conditions where the 3rd, so called deep reef is required and if they were the engine would do. The argument was proposed from a very accomplished racer who now cruises and he preferred to sail fast to destinations and was not interested in big bashes to windward anymore. He was retired and had time - so could sit out a windy day. I think there was merit in the idea if all you do is sail about on sunny days.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

..... So, once I've got my sail altered for a third reef, what would the most sensible setup?

If I left the first two reefing lines where they are (clutches under the gooseneck, so have to go forward anyway), how would I tension the third reef leach cringe down and aft?

Run a 3 mm diameter elastic messenger in a loop between the 2nd and 3rd reef cringles. Make the first reefing line long enough for a 3rd reef when the second reef is in. Once reefed to second reef, undo the first reefing pendant, attach it to the elastic messenger with a couple of clove hitches and pull the pendant round the 3rd reefing cringle. Secure the end and reef as normal.

 

[Roberto]

There is an additional point to consider (which is often overlooked, even in boats having a third reef by design): a deeply reefed mainsail imposes a backward load on the mast (through the mainsheet-leech) at roughly its mid-height, so it is important to check the mast is correctly supported along its length.

The load on the forestay at masthead level and the load halfway up the mast from the third reef may very well be enough to collapse an unsufficiently supported mast; it surely happens on racing masts where safety factors are maybe lower, imho better have a look on cruising boats too.

 

[laika]

I can't honestly see myself ever using the "4th reef" (riding sail perhaps?). Certainly won't put a permanent reefing line through it (too much string to cope with)

2 reefs may be fine for roughty toughty inshore racers with no aversion to a bit of heeling but when you're balancing a need to make progress with the need of a much less-hardcore crew who get nervous when you're a bit overpowered, I like 3: If second was deep enough to be comfortable in a gale, we'd be too underpowered or too overpowered for me, first mate, or both of us somewhere below that.

 

[Salty John]

A fourth reef on a high aspect main must have a very short foot. The boom will droop and if you support it with the topping lift the sail will not be flat. That's what I like about a trysail for extreme conditions - you can lash the boom out of harms way and sheet the trysail flat.

 

[Uricanejack]

Run a 3 mm diameter elastic messenger in a loop between the 2nd and 3rd reef cringles. Make the first reefing line long enough for a 3rd reef when the second reef is in. Once reefed to second reef, undo the first reefing pendant, attach it to the elastic messenger with a couple of clove hitches and pull the pendant round the 3rd reefing cringle. Secure the end and reef as normal.

+1 Me thinks he hath done this before.

When you put 2nd reef in re reve the 1st to the 3rd.

 

[Uricanejack]

For those who would use the engine.
I hope you have a big skookum engine in a skookum boat.

I've tried this in modern mid 30ft cruiser racer type with standard 30hp diseasel. Fine of the wind. Trying to go upwind against a good gale no joy, just a lot of pounding, engine over speeding as the prop comes out and making no tree's.
Unfortunately boat only had 2 reefs and a furler sailing not much better.
Fortunately had down wind options and changed plan.

 

[Twister_Ken]

+1 Me thinks he hath done this before.

When you put 2nd reef in re reve the 1st to the 3rd.

Unless you're planning to turn a corner and go off on a course where you'll want to lose a reef (or even two).

 

[Salty John]

Inspired by this thread, the designers at Salty John Product Laboratories have come up with a new infinitely variable mainsail reefing system. The Venetio-reefer is not quite ready for production yet - as you can see there are few minor problems to sort out - but we should be going to market very soon.
View attachment 31728

 

[oldbilbo]

Inspired by this thread, the designers at Salty John Product Laboratories have come up with a new infinitely variable mainsail reefing system. The Venetio-reefer is not quite ready for production yet - as you can see there are few minor problems to sort out - but we should be going to market very soon.
View attachment 31728

I'm afraid you may struggle to patent the idea, for there is 'prior art'.....here!


http://www.junkrigassociation.org/


Mind you, if you are able to grow a decent crop of usable bamboo poles in Darkest Lancashire, maybe you will have a ready-made market ( see above )!

 

[Salty John]

You see! Come up with a good idea and the Chinese nick it before you can get it to market. Humph!

 

[laika]

A fourth reef on a high aspect main must have a very short foot. The boom will droop and if you support it with the topping lift the sail will not be flat. That's what I like about a trysail for extreme conditions - you can lash the boom out of harms way and sheet the trysail flat.

Totally agree but I have one of those big gas rod kicker thingies which I wouldn't fancy trying to take off in any conditions that were too bad for the 3rd reef. If I'm not going to be able to lash the boom down (have I missed something there? Happy for someone to give me contrary advice) I'm loosing one of the trysail advantages.

I'm under no illusion that this fourth reef thing is a good substitute for a trysail, but given the difficulty of lashing down the boom (and adding a second track) it might be a better-than-nothing compromise. One day.

 

[oldbilbo]

"....but I have one of those big gas rod kicker thingies which I wouldn't fancy trying to take off in any conditions that were too bad for the 3rd reef. If I'm not going to be able to lash the boom down....."

It seems that a compromise that achieves crew safety would be to rig a boom preventer both fore and aft, and haul the boom well out of the way.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The primary reason for the tri sail is that the boom can be sheeted in by water pressure when on her ear; just when you need to de-power. Similarly when off the wind and the boom is out, its is forever getting shoved in board. In open water with big seas, three reefs, one spends a lot if time with the gunwales dug in. Despite this I prefer the 3rd reef over the tri sail as these sort of conditions are not likely for most coastal sailors.

 

[john_morris_uk]

A five sheave boom end is not that uncommon: reefs 1, 2, 3; clew outhaul; flattener. The flattener sheave could easily be used for a 4 reef if one was inclined. I think 3 reefs (or the 2 where the upper reef is at the 3rd reef point) is sufficient.

I agree because we've got one! The spare pulley/sheave has a mousing line tied round it that goes to the front of the boom, ready to reeve a line.

 

[oldbilbo]

The primary reason for the tri sail is that the boom can be sheeted in by water pressure when on her ear; just when you need to de-power. Similarly when off the wind and the boom is out, its is forever getting shoved in board. In open water with big seas, three reefs, one spends a lot if time with the gunwales dug in. Despite this I prefer the 3rd reef over the tri sail as these sort of conditions are not likely for most coastal sailors.

I agree with you as far as it goes, BOB. However, one of the top reasons for grief in UK coastal waters sailing is peeps being clouted hard on the head by an uncontrolled boom. Not only does it make the eyes water....

Where it is impracticable to lower a boom and lash it to the side deck, or lash it into a boom-cradle as was normal a number of decades ago, then the next best thing is to use preventers fore-and-aft to hold it secured in much the same position as would be the case with a gas strut disconnected - i.e. about 35° off centreline - and unlikely to clonk a crew member terminally in the ear.

Involuntary gybes can do so much more harm than simply damage the rigging....