3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happen?

Re: Shipswoofy

Cool!

Those not addicted don't realise the "distress" of no ciggies - couple that with your boat sinking and yer liferaft being upside down then you have the makings of a real disaster /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Xmas shopping all done - dunno what all the fuss is about! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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Well a 10yr old girl will be able to right a capsized dinghy in strong winds by using the correct technique in no time at all

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Why are you so off track? Why even raise red herrings like that?

If you cannot see why to even state such things as a slip of a girl righting a 40 man life raft in actual sea conditions is ridiculous then that is your problem.

I am not wild about health and saftey issues and consider all the risk assesement stuff nonesense .... all I am stating here is that a self righting life raft is safer than a non-self righting leife raft - its up to each individual to make their own judgments and make their own balanced decisions based on the facts.

"You seem to be trying to make the case that only self-righters are safe"

I am clearly not making that case at all and not one word written by me has indicated that but I have indicated that a self righter is safer than a non-self righter and that we should all learn how to right an upside down life raft ..... I know that some seem to have a problem with the simplicity of my points and try to add things I have not said and then artgue with a point I have never made ..... totally absurd.

What is wrong is to tell anyone that righting a life raft at sea is simple for anyone trained or not - simple hypothermic shock can disable an olympic swimmer let alone any of us ... it very dangerous to get into the water at all and if that can be avoided all the better.

"it matters not if a raft inflates inverted if it can be righted from the mother vessel "

That is a bit of a silly statement isn't it?

Its always better for the raft to inflate the rigth way up and it would matter in time and other factors if it is not.
It can be very difficult to right it from the boat and nobody here has explained any technique to do so - so why are you raising such points? Grasping at straws to try and defend the slip of the girl and the 40 man life raft?
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Sorry for starting such a debate /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Anyway I am off out to try my new camera so may not be here quite so often, Oh! got to go as I must do a quick risk assessment before I leave the office and head down Oxford Street and across London, err... Do not go near gadget or chandlery shops!...done..... /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I wish all the 'safety concern' crew a very Happy Christmas and a 'Safe' new year. As for the others you will have to look out for yoursleves you have been warned /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

OK, the best wishes to all of you /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Please don't 'consider all the risk assessment stuff nonsense': once someone suggests that a risk assessment is a good idea the insurance companies will latch onto it. This has happened to us and I have paperwork half an inch thick which anyone even coming aboard is supposed to read and sign. This was instigated by the Seafish Industry authority, and the moment it came into existence became an insurance requirement, or rather, a means for them to contest a claim. Bit like a car MOT.

At the moment I imagine you would be subject to what would be considered 'prudent'.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

I wonder if you have actually tried to right a liferaft ...... probably not, or else you wouldnt be babbling such dross

second - I take exception to being accused of making silly remarks ........ though that probably doesnt bother you

FYI I have taken part with and witnessed skinny boys and girls righting liferafts, in fact they wouldnt pass the mca sea suvival cert without doing it so couldnt follow a career at sea .........
plus I have taken part and witnessed young r.n. boys and girls righting a liferaft - again without doing it thay wouldnt pass the r.n's bssc or issc survival courses and, again not be able to go to sea ......

so without doubt you are full of bollox -

and for your information, even in a force 6, one can use the wind to ones advantage assisting it to lift the liferaft to right it.

I suggest you get your facts right before shooting your gobshite mouth off - confusing the issue of righting liferafts with you own incompetance ..... you twat /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Very nice stuff there 0 try calming down a bit.

I am not sure as to what bit of bollox I am supossed to have written or what facts I have wrong but frankly I am assuming there is an ability to read on the part of the reader and that assumption may be wrong in your case.

I have clearly supported the training to right a life raft .... so my facts cannot be wrong there....

I have stated that its best not to have to get into the water but stright into the raft if possible and nobody has disagreed there ......

I have explained that hypothermic shock can make it almost impossible for anyone to right any life raft and again ... nobody has disputed that .....

Oh... yes I have stated that a slip of a girl would have big problems righting a 40 person life raft in a f6 but now at last I have a real dispute - you seem to think that you can actually use such conditions to your advantage including high winds - so for the sake of us all can you please explain how this slip of a girl is going to right a 40 man life raft in a f6 without getting into the water????

Maybe , just maybe you have not learnt a few basics from survival school ....... but I amy be wrong, you may be so advanced at it that you can actually answer my questions ..... or maybe you will just hurl abuse and try to avoid any thinking at all ...... I am not jolding my breath....
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Quote:---so for the sake of us all can you please explain how this slip of a girl is going to right a 40 man life raft in a f6 without getting into the water????----------

You've turned it into another question now: no one said she could do it without getting into the water, in fact one of my previous described the procedure in detail.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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I understand that righting a raft is very difficult and not practical in any sort of heavy sea, so I am surprised to hear anyone state that any slip of a girl can right a 40 man raft!!!!

The facts are that people have died because of rafts inflating upside down.

Please expand on your point, just explain how a slip of a girl who has just managed get the liferaft off the boat, tethered to the boat and in say a f6 short sea can go about righting this 40 man life raft sitting upside down in front of her...... I wait to hear with baited breath ......

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to be quite honest I cant be bothered chasing your stupid banter round and round in circles .......

if your imagination cant expand to encompass the need to enter the water to right an upturned liferaft, nothing I say here will even dent your aura of stupidity. if as they say ignorance is bliss, you must be in heaven already

just take it from me that the wind and sea assists is righting the liferaft if the correct technique is used ....... I cant be bothered to argue with a dickwit like you

the reason most ppl die when using a raft which is upside down is cos they have not been trained to use the equipment properly, so dont know how to right it and then use it - ok

in a hypethetical situation whereby a young teenager (of any gender) is confronted by an upsidedown liferaft tethered to a vessel, I would put slim odds on their survival unless they knew what to do ...... and good odds on a trained individual.

from what you say I would put you in the former group /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Fisherman
I asked that because it was accepted that getting into the water was a bad thing but the point being made was that rafts could be righted without getting into the water (not you) hence I asked how.

My original point was that there was no chance ois a slip of a girl doing it in the water in a f6.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

You a really are incapable of reading and digesting a point.

You accept that you have to jump into the sea to right the raft but seem to totally ignore the effects of jumping into the sea including hypothermic shock. You seem blind to digest the simple points I am making which basically is just that training is very important and can be more important than the equipment but a self righting raft removes any need to jump into the sea and right the raft and is therefore safer than a non-righting one. The best safety of all is achieved by having both the training and the the best equipment.

"just take it from me that the wind and sea assists is righting the life raft if the correct technique is used ....... I cant be bothered to argue with a dickwit like you"

What do you mean take it from you - you do not even tell us who you are!!! You are totally ignoring all the real world situations that can apply in getting into a life raft and seem to live in a dream world where you can simply dive into any temperature of water and right any raft because you are trained and so hand out the wisdom .... well please let me explain something - you totally lack any understanding of how a human body behaves, in a situation of stress when jumping into very cold water. You have no clue about real world survival or the practical conditions.

I would love to take you out in a f8 with a sea temperature of 6 C, inflate a life raft upside down and video you jumping into the water and righting it, then climing into it. But even if by some miracle you managed that, would you not have preferred to stay out of the water and not risk all that is associated with that situation? Well it seems not, it seems that you think its no problem!!!!

Anyone reading this thread would have to conclude that you are totally mad in making such a proposition

I could not take you out on my boat to test this because I would be had up for manslaughter, despite the fact that gene pool might be slightly better off afterwards! I am willing to pay a fair amount of dosh to video it when you jump off another boat in such conditions.

It frankly amazes me that such a simple, reasonable logic that I am advancing is actually somehow being disputed …. Amazing.

I have now learnt that some idiots manage to do the survival course and learn nothing from it – in fact continue to be the same macho nonsense front that they have always been and somehow become deaf to simple points like a self righting life raft is safer than a non-self righting one.

The one item of value that I hope comes from the thread is that those reading it will at least consider self righting, avoid rope ladders and want an insulated life raft floor – even if considered and rejected that’s OK by me.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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the reason most ppl die when using a raft which is upside down is cos they have not been trained to use the equipment properly, so dont know how to right it and then use it - ok


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No - the reason most people die is because they go into shock and become incapable of doing anything like righting a life raft in real sea conditions. Tyey can also be injured or sustain injury during the process.

In many situations you can go into shock within 30 seconds.

Jumping into any sort of largish seas off the boat can result in all sorts of things like being smashed by the boat etc.

So survival chances are increased by not needing to jump into the water ... its that simple but you cannot see the simplicity of the point.

I am amazed that you have learnt so little.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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No - the reason most people die is because they go into shock and become incapable of doing anything like righting a life raft in real sea conditions. Tyey can also be injured or sustain injury during the process.

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Not the reason I was given when doing sea survival , in fact one of the examples they used was the Estonia ferry where a lot of the people who died were found on upside down liferafts

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the reason most ppl die when using a raft which is upside down is cos they have not been trained to use the equipment properly, so dont know how to right it and then use it - ok

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Above point from Landaftaff was what was stressed, which is the whole reason for doing a sea survival course, ie to learn how to use the equipment properly.

Yes the ideal situation is to step into the raft without entering the water first or even better not having to use it a all, but situations never work out that way normally
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Mike
No matter how well trained you are if you go into shock you are in trouble an incapable of doing anything.
Casualties at sea result from this more than the inablity to turn over a life raft.

" - the reason most ppl die when using a raft which is upside down is cos they have not been trained to use the equipment properly, so dont know how to right it and then use it - ok -"

"Above point from Landaftaff was what was stressed, which is the whole reason for doing a sea survival course, ie to learn how to use the equipment properly."

I am one who is advocating everyone doing the sea survival course - I have also stated a number of times that training can be more important than equipment - so I am not and have not argued other than getting trained, so I really do not understand why you make the point about training to me?

What I am saying Mike is very simple, tell me where you disagree:0

1. Its often not possible in real life sea conditions to be able to get into the water and right any liferaft because of shock and rough seas.

2. Never the less it is important that all are trained to use all the equipment properly.

3. It best to have to never get into the water before boarding the life raft.

4. Given that point 3 is agreed to then a self righting raft that may avoid the need to get into the water must be safrer than a non-self righting raft.


That is all I have been stating throughout this thread.

In trtaining you are taight about the effect of real life sea conditions and taight not to get into the water if you have to - which instructor anywhere would tell you that its better not to have a self righting raft because you can always get in the water and right it? If any taught that they should be struck oof the training register.

Red herrings have crept in such as the 40 man raft and the slip of a girl and what i am clearly stating on that is that to have such a situation in say an f6 real life would in effect be almost impossible for such a slip of a girl to achieve.


So why can those simnple points no be seen and either agreed or disagreed with?

Why do you go on about training when you are telling me who gas clearly stated the need for it and its importance?

Please answer my points.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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1. Its often not possible in real life sea conditions to be able to get into the water and right any liferaft because of shock and rough seas.

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Agreed!

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2. Never the less it is important that all are trained to use all the equipment properly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed!

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3. It best to have to never get into the water before boarding the life raft.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed!

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4. Given that point 3 is agreed to then a self righting raft that may avoid the need to get into the water must be safrer than a non-self righting raft.

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Agreed!


Can we move on now? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Ok lets move on - what are your views on the actual difficulty of getting into a life raft using the rope ladder often fitted for the purpose?
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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Why are you so off track? Why even raise red herrings like that?

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My point was that it is technique that is important, not weight, so your anti "slip of a girl righting a 40-man raft" is cobblers, it has everything to do with the technique and training used, if the slip of a girl is trained she'll be able to, if it is an untrained you (or me) then quite probably not, but it is the training that is important, not the size of the person righting the raft - and proper techniques can overcome quite severe weather, hence the dinghy comment.

Why do you have such problems understanding when people try and come at the issue from another standpoint, not everyone enjoys banging their head against a brick wall as you seem to??????

Bye.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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Can we move on now? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Probably not as we haven't all agreed his point of view /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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Ok lets move on - what are your views on the actual difficulty of getting into a life raft using the rope ladder often fitted for the purpose?

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Bloody hard! Which is why the strongest should enter the raft first. You may not have the luxury of being able to enter the raft prior to going in the water. You need a surprising amount of upper body strength. IMHO, the raft is the last resort.

Getting into a raft is one thing - surviving in it is another. It is a very uncomfortable environment - both physically and psychologically! Oh Oh, here we go again! /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
 
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