3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happen?

Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Waste of time in pointing out any flaws in your arguments, just don't sign me up for any of your sea survival courses
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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Probably not as we haven't all agreed his point of view /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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The points as raised in the last post are difficult to find fault with! The whole tenor of his postings however do leave much to be desired. Even GC1 has gone to ground /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

We will have to disagree on this - in real sea conditions I think it would be very difficult for a slip of a girl no matter how well trained to right a 40 man life raft. This whole point was a red herring because the discussion was about slef righting rafts and the whole point there is to stop going into the water at all - its seems everyone actually agreed with me on that and therefore on the fact that a self righter must be safrer than a non-self righter.

Ithe video I published on this forum was taken in a f7 - the thought of anyone jumping into the water in thos conditions and trying to right a self liferaft is amazing = the chances are they would be injured by the boat - had the boat been adrift in those conditions going into that water to right the raft would be very, vert dangerous.

I have no problem with people coming to the issue from another standpoint, I welcome it and we all gain by that happening - I have a problem when people go to extremes and miss the entire point then make assumptions on things that have not be said - it stops the progress of the discussion which sjould have gone onto other issues on life rafts.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

No you have failed to point out a single flawm not a single point upon which you actually disagree and that sort of remark sums up the level of debate.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

I really do think that you have prevented a proper discussion of the subject by raising red herrings. I am now trying to move the discussion on yet you are still harping on about it...... please move on or do not take part.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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Ok we agre a rope ladder is very hard - do you agree that the much more robust Viking system is much easier?

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I have no experience of the Viking. If it's easier than the "rope/canvas" type, then it can only be a benefit.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

The viking system is a very thick robust inflated loop that you can kneel on and haul yourself in - it stays upright and does not go horizontal like the rope ladders - I think that rope ladders are almost the same as nothing and make it very difficult to get in and i would like anyone looking at a life raft to really think about this point and ask those who have tried to use them - even in a swimming pool .... they are a real problem. I will publish videos on this on this forum.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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I really do think that you have prevented a proper discussion of the subject by raising red herrings. I am now trying to move the discussion on yet you are still harping on about it...... please move on or do not take part.

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I now don't think you are in the real world! What red herrings? The introduction of the other effects of taking to a liferaft? If you think that's a red herring then I'm very sorry for you. You prevented a proper discussion some time ago. I just thought I'd try an bring it back to reality. My mistake! Saying that, it would appear that there are others contributing to this thread who are also mistaken. Oh well! We must all be wrong! What's it like to be the master of the universe? No, don't answer that!
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

It was not the introduction of the other effects at all - in response to the points being dicuseed on self righting it was pointed out that even a slip of a gilr could right a 40 man liferaft - no menttion was made of the real sea conditions and the problems of having to jump into the water.

All i did was point out that firstlly that in real sea conditions it is not easy to right a life raft and that there are such things as hypothermic shock to consider and that a slip of a girl could not right a lifr=e raft in say an f6.

Please read this thread - see what i actually wrote and then see how anyopne knot knowing could have been misled into thinking that anyone with the right techniuque could right a life raft - hence not really value the slef righting aspect of a life raft. That was the point I would not allow to be muddied.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Surely this is all a bit moot Gludy, from the Viking Website they only appear to supply self-righting rafts in 25, 50, 101 and 150 man sizes (although they do a reversible in 6-man size).

So these rafts aren't suitably sized for the normal leisure market are they???? Indeed having 6 crew in a 25-man raft is somewhat less than optimal in cooler climes. But don't worry, they'll be the right way up when hypothermia sets in.

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VIKING is capable of supplying 25, 51, 101 and 150 person automatically self-righting liferafts, throw-overboard type, developed and approved to the latest international regulations applying to ro-ro passenger ships.

The liferafts are to be applied with slides or chutes installed on board RO-RO ferries. They may also serve as liferafts for direct boarding from decks not more than 1,5 m above waterlevel on small ferries and passenger ships.

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Some of their raft images here even show standard canvas ladders /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Personally I'm going to carry a fully operational Arran-class on the bathing platform. What a waste of everyones time.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Sorry I ever introduced anyone to that slip of a girl, like many slips of girls, has caused a lot of problems. I was afraid to suggest what you have just found to be the case, and that no one was going to be righting a forty man anyway.

If you have an inverted raft alongside, at about 45 degrees tipped up by the canopy, it should be easy enough to turn it until the bottle, on the lower side, is nearest. There will be a tape running across the base, around the tube and into the door and across the floor inside, and from your elevated position it should be easy to pull the raft upright and bring the door over to finish facing you, and the painter will be attached here as well. I think the main danger would be using the painter to do this, rather than the tape, (if untrained), as the painter is obviously designed to tear loose at some level of strain, so to be avoided. I emphasise that we did not do this, we did it from in the water.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Its Only Money

1 . For the record Viking supply self righting rafts down to 6 man, they may even do a 4 man I have had an 8 man self righting for 4 years and purchased a 6 man self righting last week from the Viking premises so your stated facts are wrong.

2. the ladder arrangements on these is not the rope ladder but a totally different asystem that works and makes it much easier to enter the raft from the sea.
I just went to the Viking site, clicked on liferafts then self righting in the left column and the details are there.

I have to make it clear to everyone that if they prefer stepping into the raft rather than maybe having to dive into a f8, avoid getting clobbered by the boat and raft, avoid hypothermic shock and then have to right a raft with a gale keeping it pinned down - there are self righting rafts available right down to 6 man and maybe 4 man. That is a fact beyond any doubt. I have two of them.

I went to the web site and see that they have not updated it for years so they are responsible for giving out this misleading information and I can understand where you got the duff info from. However, I do not want anyone to think that they do not have the option to buy slef righting they do.

I will be posting some video footage on the subject showing small 6 man rafts self righting and showing how a person enters the rafts from the sea.

If nothing else, I hope that this thread and the self righting option has made some forumites aware of it and why it is there. I hope it has made them aware of the huge differences between righting a life raft in a pool compared to the sea. I also hope it has made them think about doing the one day survival course so that they at least get some experience/training of the problems.

I think anyone who has had to haul themselves into a raft from a pool has been surprised as to how difficult it can be. Even more difficult if you are not prepared for it so I think on that subject everyone would agree - the rope ladders are almost useless or at least very, very difficult.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Fisherman
I am not sure what you are claiming here but it sounds very much like you are claiming that it should not be difficult, if trained, to right an upside down life raft from a boat in real sea conditions ....... !!!!!!!!

You are also stating that you are not trained to do this and that the training did not cover it but think it should be fairly easy.

I am lost for words with that .... in practice the raft can be getting bashed against the side of the boat, the boat can be rising up above the raft only to come down onto it .... the wind can be causing all sorts of problems ...... Simply managing to get into the raft from the boat can be a major problem.

Simply getting onto say the bathing plaform to get into the raft can be a major problem.

If I could arrange it and paid for the raft to be inflated etc would you be willing to come out in say an f7 with me and be filmed trying to do this? It really would make an interesting video!!

The video I am making on this subject covers untrained people doing tasks as well as trained people doing the same task. The reason for doing it this way is to drive home the point about how difficult it all is and why its important to get the training as well as choose the right equipment. I want to expose the stupidity of rope ladders etc.

Just imagine putting your rib out alongside your boat in such conditions - it would be bashed against your boat and would be all over the place ---- you really have to get away from this swimming pool mentality.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

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1 . For the record Viking supply self righting rafts down to 6 man, they may even do a 4 man I have had an 8 man self righting for 4 years and purchased a 6 man self righting last week from the Viking premises so your stated facts are wrong.

2. the ladder arrangements on these is not the rope ladder but a totally different asystem that works and makes it much easier to enter the raft from the sea.
I just went to the Viking site, clicked on liferafts then self righting in the left column and the details are there.



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Why don't you post the link? OK, I'll do it - HERE

And it's even got instructions
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Thank you for the link,

I went onto Google and found the same link as fisherman and that site did give duff info as fisherman stated.

The image on the link you gave clearly show what you have in place of a ladder. You grab the white strap and then haul yourself into or kneel your way into the raft.

It should also be noted that Viking are the only rafts independentaly tested to conform to the ISO standard It also indicates that the self righting starts at 4 person.
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

Are there any more life rafts thatyou know about that are self righting, don't care about the certification just that they will work. I AM concerned about this and want to know who to approach at LIBS and what questions I should ask.

I still don't see how they self right, I see the role top, but what stops them blowing over, are you just relying on the legs to fill with water ASAP? I would like to see a film of them performing, it could be all a marketing gimmick!
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

The certification does matter because I am not sure some self certified rafts would really past the tests...... there is another story there.

Vikings do not rely on the legs filling - they will right themselves without any water in the legs - the test from the link given in the other thread stated that no matter what they did, they self righted straight away. There will be a video ay the Viking stand so go and see how it works.

When you do compare the quality of build, the ease of entering etc compared to others - there really is no comparison.

I do not know of any other self righting rafts down to 4 man.

If ever you came to use it then you would want to know that the need to enter the water and do self righting tricks was minimised. You should in any event take the course but the logic of what I am saying is independent of the course - its just common sense.

My logic is this - if I want a life raft at all then I must want it for the hopefully never to happen occasion when I need it - at that time would I be willing to have forked out the extra few hundred quid as an extra cost over say 12 years - say about £25 a year - well when I pulled the string on that lifefraft I would want to minimise the things that can go wrong - hence to me it is worth it.

As regards jumping in, finding the bottle and walking up the raft to turn it over - thats fine in a swimming pool but in a real situation in any sort of sea it is not easy at all and would often be impossible because of water temerature, thermal shock etc- it should be avoided at all costs.

I know you can see the logic of this. I am amazed that anyone could consider such a simple logic controversial at all.

Happy Xmas

My dinner is almost ready ...
 
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ

I fully understand what you say and agree re the cost issue, nothing at all in order to give you some chance of surviving. I will go to the stand and have a good look, I have heard about the cheaper ones, some have mitred corners (is that the word) and some are just one ring tube bent at the corners, I think it is better to have more than 1 chamber.

I ams still amazed at how they self right, but not complaining if that is the case, when or if I need to use it then that is one less thing to worry about, vital in circumstances like that.

A very merry Christmas to you and thanks for your invaluable comments and data supplied, much appreciated /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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