KevB
Well-Known Member
Re: Shipswoofy
[ QUOTE ]
Cos I don't want to!
[/ QUOTE ] /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Cos I don't want to!
[/ QUOTE ] /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happen?
- Thread starter GC1
- Start date
David_Jersey
Well-Known Member
Re: Shipswoofy
Never been one for a liferaft - always relied on having an inflatable dinghy - it is always inflated for practical reasons, cos I am too lazy to deflate it and pump it up again. I appreciate it's main short coming is that I may die of Hypothermia. But the upside is that I KNOW it will float. If I was going well "offshore", ie accross the atlantic I would probably splash out on a GOOD liferaft. Handheld VHF is about as advanced as I have got, in teh belief (correct?) that it is something that the lifeboat could home in on, at least to some degree. thought about the personal epirbs thingys, but never perusaded myslef.
I try and concentrate my efforts and time on making sure that if I do sink, it ain't my fault. So far so good /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
"Just in case" I am run ashore somewhere bleak and desolate............I am going to fit a motorbike to the back of mine. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Never been one for a liferaft - always relied on having an inflatable dinghy - it is always inflated for practical reasons, cos I am too lazy to deflate it and pump it up again. I appreciate it's main short coming is that I may die of Hypothermia. But the upside is that I KNOW it will float. If I was going well "offshore", ie accross the atlantic I would probably splash out on a GOOD liferaft. Handheld VHF is about as advanced as I have got, in teh belief (correct?) that it is something that the lifeboat could home in on, at least to some degree. thought about the personal epirbs thingys, but never perusaded myslef.
I try and concentrate my efforts and time on making sure that if I do sink, it ain't my fault. So far so good /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
"Just in case" I am run ashore somewhere bleak and desolate............I am going to fit a motorbike to the back of mine. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
fisherman
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
If you do the sea survival course you will be trained to right an inverted raft, and a slip of a girl can right a forty-man raft.
If you do the sea survival course you will be trained to right an inverted raft, and a slip of a girl can right a forty-man raft.
Gludy
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
I understand that righting a raft is very difficult and not practical in any sort of heavy sea, so I am surprised to hear anyone state that any slip of a girl can right a 40 man raft!!!!
The facts are that people have died because of rafts inflating upside down.
Please expand on your point, just explain how a slip of a girl who has just managed get the liferaft off the boat, tethered to the boat and in say a f6 short sea can go about righting this 40 man life raft sitting upside down in front of her...... I wait to hear with baited breath ......
I understand that righting a raft is very difficult and not practical in any sort of heavy sea, so I am surprised to hear anyone state that any slip of a girl can right a 40 man raft!!!!
The facts are that people have died because of rafts inflating upside down.
Please expand on your point, just explain how a slip of a girl who has just managed get the liferaft off the boat, tethered to the boat and in say a f6 short sea can go about righting this 40 man life raft sitting upside down in front of her...... I wait to hear with baited breath ......
landaftaf
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
its a technique taught in all seamanship schools creditied with training ppl to use a liferaft .........
swim to the side where the inflation bottle is, climb the straps put there for the purpose, flip liferaft over and board it - simple.
THEN the skill starts, suvival depends on doing the correct things, not just righting the raft. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
its a technique taught in all seamanship schools creditied with training ppl to use a liferaft .........
swim to the side where the inflation bottle is, climb the straps put there for the purpose, flip liferaft over and board it - simple.
THEN the skill starts, suvival depends on doing the correct things, not just righting the raft. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
Gludy
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
I am sorry but I think you are up a gum tree with that one and frankly I think you are misleading people on a subject of safety.
First of all you are suggesting stating that the slip of a girl has to jump into the water - instead of stepping into the liferaft - I think the survival lessons should really start there by not needing to jump into the water at all!!! ...... I have seen videos of rafts being righted and I know the technique but to claim that a slip of a girl can right a 40 man liferaft is absurd and to place the girl in the water, in a an f6 and short sea, rather than straight into the raft is equally absurd.
I am sorry but I am not joking on this matter - the fact is that self righting rafts are required by law on ferries and liners etc because of a major incident when over a hundred dies because the life rafts were upside down - the crews tried to right them. According to you such ships should have a trained slip of a girl ready to dive in the water and do the job for them!!!
I know the trouble that men having righting small raft in totally still waters of a swimming pool - just imagine a 40 man raft in a f6 with a slip of a girl managing to right it!!!!! Imagine the wind forces on it etc ... imagine all the problems.
....... I really think you should withdraw such a silly statment. Safety is not a matter to be influenced by such unsound advice.
I am sorry but I think you are up a gum tree with that one and frankly I think you are misleading people on a subject of safety.
First of all you are suggesting stating that the slip of a girl has to jump into the water - instead of stepping into the liferaft - I think the survival lessons should really start there by not needing to jump into the water at all!!! ...... I have seen videos of rafts being righted and I know the technique but to claim that a slip of a girl can right a 40 man liferaft is absurd and to place the girl in the water, in a an f6 and short sea, rather than straight into the raft is equally absurd.
I am sorry but I am not joking on this matter - the fact is that self righting rafts are required by law on ferries and liners etc because of a major incident when over a hundred dies because the life rafts were upside down - the crews tried to right them. According to you such ships should have a trained slip of a girl ready to dive in the water and do the job for them!!!
I know the trouble that men having righting small raft in totally still waters of a swimming pool - just imagine a 40 man raft in a f6 with a slip of a girl managing to right it!!!!! Imagine the wind forces on it etc ... imagine all the problems.
....... I really think you should withdraw such a silly statment. Safety is not a matter to be influenced by such unsound advice.
GC1
N/A
Re: Shipswoofy
Don't worry, I have dealt with village idiots before, just humour them and they will go away /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Never dealt with a bitter and twisted one though /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif But always a first time /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Don't worry, I have dealt with village idiots before, just humour them and they will go away /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Never dealt with a bitter and twisted one though /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif But always a first time /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
mirage
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
[ QUOTE ]
I know the trouble that men having righting small raft in totally still waters of a swimming pool
[/ QUOTE ]
In that case they haven't been taught properly, as a over-weight, un-fit 50+ year old, I had no problem righting a 12 man raft during a sea survival course a while ago, getting into the bloody thing was a different matter though.
[ QUOTE ]
I know the trouble that men having righting small raft in totally still waters of a swimming pool
[/ QUOTE ]
In that case they haven't been taught properly, as a over-weight, un-fit 50+ year old, I had no problem righting a 12 man raft during a sea survival course a while ago, getting into the bloody thing was a different matter though.
GC1
N/A
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
Please expand on the getting in bit, I have not done the course and hope to before the new season, I would be interested to hear what I should expect and whether I should start to get in training now /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Please expand on the getting in bit, I have not done the course and hope to before the new season, I would be interested to hear what I should expect and whether I should start to get in training now /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
ShipsWoofy
Well-Known Member
Re: Shipswoofy
What yer gonna do, tell teacher again!
Look I was serious, you seem to think you can buy out risk, it is a seriously jaded view and hopefully wont, but might come back and bite you.
You seem to have bought into the attitude that all risk is unacceptable, the reason this country is becoming a nanny state where everything slightly dangerous is legislated again, yawn, life will be so full then eh?
FWIW you do not ignore me, you keep coming back with nasty little remarks, while you keep doing this I will not go away. While you presume everyone but you is an idiot, any one who disagrees with you is a moron, I will be there. You seem to think you are better than everyone else, well shock horror bud, you're not!
What yer gonna do, tell teacher again!
Look I was serious, you seem to think you can buy out risk, it is a seriously jaded view and hopefully wont, but might come back and bite you.
You seem to have bought into the attitude that all risk is unacceptable, the reason this country is becoming a nanny state where everything slightly dangerous is legislated again, yawn, life will be so full then eh?
FWIW you do not ignore me, you keep coming back with nasty little remarks, while you keep doing this I will not go away. While you presume everyone but you is an idiot, any one who disagrees with you is a moron, I will be there. You seem to think you are better than everyone else, well shock horror bud, you're not!
fisherman
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
Well you've hit the nail on the thumb, 'I have not done the course'. The raft is likely to inflate upside down. It will float on the canopy, which means it is at an angle of perhaps 45 degrees. You climb on to the gas bottle which will be closest to the water. There will be a white tape running up across the base of the raft which you grab and lean back, and the raft falls on your face. If you try to turn over and swim out of this position you may drown. You keep hauling along the tape which moves the raft off your face and leads you to the entry. Hopefully you can haul yourself in. I asked the instructor about bigger rafts and he told me that a 'slip of a girl' could right a forty man raft. Education, education, education!
Well you've hit the nail on the thumb, 'I have not done the course'. The raft is likely to inflate upside down. It will float on the canopy, which means it is at an angle of perhaps 45 degrees. You climb on to the gas bottle which will be closest to the water. There will be a white tape running up across the base of the raft which you grab and lean back, and the raft falls on your face. If you try to turn over and swim out of this position you may drown. You keep hauling along the tape which moves the raft off your face and leads you to the entry. Hopefully you can haul yourself in. I asked the instructor about bigger rafts and he told me that a 'slip of a girl' could right a forty man raft. Education, education, education!
mirage
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
I was deemed the strongest & therefore the first one in the life raft so it was rather unstable & I had no one to help me in, it was just hard work & the (inflatable) life jacket seemed to get in the way.
I think the instructor was trying to make a point & made us use crutch straps on the life jacket for the second go, which made things much easier.
The course was fun & interesting but rather frightening, in an 'ignorance is bliss' way.
I was deemed the strongest & therefore the first one in the life raft so it was rather unstable & I had no one to help me in, it was just hard work & the (inflatable) life jacket seemed to get in the way.
I think the instructor was trying to make a point & made us use crutch straps on the life jacket for the second go, which made things much easier.
The course was fun & interesting but rather frightening, in an 'ignorance is bliss' way.
Gludy
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
Please get real - the sea survival course was in a f6 at sea was it?
Or was is it in a calm, warm swimming pool where you were not hypothermic etc?
You are weaker than a slip of a girl are you?
Have you tried to do a 40 man raft?
Are you advicing that its better to jump into the sea and then right a raft in real sea conditions than just get into it without needing to jump into the sea?
A trained swimmer can become useless inside seconds when plunged into cold water - so I reckon the swimming pool should have a wavemaker, 10 foot waves and the water at about 6 degrees C - so how you manage to even turn over a small 4 man life raft then.
My advice is -
1. When choosing a life raft always consider factors such as _
a) Self righting
b) Ease of access from the water - rope ladders are next usless.
c) Insulated floor - even in the english Channel a night in a raft can equal hypothermia.
At least be aware of them before rejecting them as too expensive.
It seems to me that some people are spelling out that self righting is not really needed because it simple, at sea, inall conditions for anyone to turn over any raft that can ever be on a leisure craft...... is that right? because if that is what you are saying you are talking safety nonesense.
In real conditions with cold waters, waves, terror stricken crew the best thing is to avoid adding having to jump into the water to right the raft .... or do some people truly live on another planet here?
It seems that some attend sea survival courses and come away not appreciating the first thing about real life safety issues.
Please get real - the sea survival course was in a f6 at sea was it?
Or was is it in a calm, warm swimming pool where you were not hypothermic etc?
You are weaker than a slip of a girl are you?
Have you tried to do a 40 man raft?
Are you advicing that its better to jump into the sea and then right a raft in real sea conditions than just get into it without needing to jump into the sea?
A trained swimmer can become useless inside seconds when plunged into cold water - so I reckon the swimming pool should have a wavemaker, 10 foot waves and the water at about 6 degrees C - so how you manage to even turn over a small 4 man life raft then.
My advice is -
1. When choosing a life raft always consider factors such as _
a) Self righting
b) Ease of access from the water - rope ladders are next usless.
c) Insulated floor - even in the english Channel a night in a raft can equal hypothermia.
At least be aware of them before rejecting them as too expensive.
It seems to me that some people are spelling out that self righting is not really needed because it simple, at sea, inall conditions for anyone to turn over any raft that can ever be on a leisure craft...... is that right? because if that is what you are saying you are talking safety nonesense.
In real conditions with cold waters, waves, terror stricken crew the best thing is to avoid adding having to jump into the water to right the raft .... or do some people truly live on another planet here?
It seems that some attend sea survival courses and come away not appreciating the first thing about real life safety issues.
fisherman
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
I think one needs to maintain a sense of proportion. You probably drive from your home to your boat along a motorway. Do you use the inside lane at 40 mph, equipped with airbags, traction control, SIPS, ABS, four point belts, auto fire extinguishers etc. Should you fit a roll cage? If you meet with an accident you will wish you had all of these. And remember, unlike the fishermen who have been castigated for allegedly being ill equipped elsewhere in this thread, you are not even doing this for a living. Furthermore you are partaking in an activity which kills TEN people every day in this country. You may succumb to pilot error, equipment failure, the weather, or the actions of others around you. I'm only playing devil's apricot.
-------------------------------------------
You can always tell an old fisherman, but you can't tell him much.
I think one needs to maintain a sense of proportion. You probably drive from your home to your boat along a motorway. Do you use the inside lane at 40 mph, equipped with airbags, traction control, SIPS, ABS, four point belts, auto fire extinguishers etc. Should you fit a roll cage? If you meet with an accident you will wish you had all of these. And remember, unlike the fishermen who have been castigated for allegedly being ill equipped elsewhere in this thread, you are not even doing this for a living. Furthermore you are partaking in an activity which kills TEN people every day in this country. You may succumb to pilot error, equipment failure, the weather, or the actions of others around you. I'm only playing devil's apricot.
-------------------------------------------
You can always tell an old fisherman, but you can't tell him much.
Solitaire
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
[ QUOTE ]
instead of stepping into the life raft - I think the survival lessons should really start there by not needing to jump into the water at all!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Go and do the sea survival course and then come back and comment! OK, so it may only be in a swimming pool, but I can assure you that we make it as difficult as we can so that it can be appreciated how difficult it can be to use a life raft. It also a major point that you should never step down into a lifraft, rather step up into it!! Frankly Gludy you are speaking through your rectal orifice. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
[ QUOTE ]
instead of stepping into the life raft - I think the survival lessons should really start there by not needing to jump into the water at all!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Go and do the sea survival course and then come back and comment! OK, so it may only be in a swimming pool, but I can assure you that we make it as difficult as we can so that it can be appreciated how difficult it can be to use a life raft. It also a major point that you should never step down into a lifraft, rather step up into it!! Frankly Gludy you are speaking through your rectal orifice. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Gludy
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
[ QUOTE ]
Education ,education, education
[/ QUOTE ]
I could not agree more but this is not education its pure nonesense.
It is far safer to have the liferaft inflate the right way up and get into it from the boat than for anyone to have to jump into the water to do the hero bit with real wind and real waves.
Your instructor is talking pure nonesense if he is claiming that in real sea conditions a slip of a girl could right a 40 man life raft and you are not helping anyone by spreading such nonesense here.
Do you or do you not agree that a self righting life raft must be safer?
Do you or do you not agree that its always best to avoid getting into the water?
Do you not agree that in real life with really cold water, panciked crew, wind and waves that righting any life raft may prove impossible?
[ QUOTE ]
Education ,education, education
[/ QUOTE ]
I could not agree more but this is not education its pure nonesense.
It is far safer to have the liferaft inflate the right way up and get into it from the boat than for anyone to have to jump into the water to do the hero bit with real wind and real waves.
Your instructor is talking pure nonesense if he is claiming that in real sea conditions a slip of a girl could right a 40 man life raft and you are not helping anyone by spreading such nonesense here.
Do you or do you not agree that a self righting life raft must be safer?
Do you or do you not agree that its always best to avoid getting into the water?
Do you not agree that in real life with really cold water, panciked crew, wind and waves that righting any life raft may prove impossible?
Gludy
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
You are avoiding aanswering the questions.
All i am doing is pointing out some attributes of a life raft that are important and asking people to consider them when choosing one.
I am not in support of a nanny state but I am grateful for the air bags etc in a car yes - its a balance.
You are totally avoiding the simple questions i pose. I have not criricised the fisherman at all. I am simply making points on safety and you are dishing out incredibly misleading advice.
You are avoiding aanswering the questions.
All i am doing is pointing out some attributes of a life raft that are important and asking people to consider them when choosing one.
I am not in support of a nanny state but I am grateful for the air bags etc in a car yes - its a balance.
You are totally avoiding the simple questions i pose. I have not criricised the fisherman at all. I am simply making points on safety and you are dishing out incredibly misleading advice.
fisherman
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
I was told that the instruction in question was Merchant Navy based , in Plymouth Sound. Yes absolutely, if you can organise a raft into which you can step with dry feet, great. The men who drowned reasonably thought that they had rafts and EPIRBS available: plan for the worst possible scenario.
I was told that the instruction in question was Merchant Navy based , in Plymouth Sound. Yes absolutely, if you can organise a raft into which you can step with dry feet, great. The men who drowned reasonably thought that they had rafts and EPIRBS available: plan for the worst possible scenario.
mirage
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
[ QUOTE ]
Please get real - the sea survival course was in a f6 at sea was it?
Or was is it in a calm, warm swimming pool where you were not hypothermic etc?
[/ QUOTE ]No, it was in a calmish, cold, dive pool.
[ QUOTE ]
You are weaker than a slip of a girl are you?
[/ QUOTE ]
I've no idea, but if could right a 12 man raft with-out extending much effort, I can accept that a 'slip of a girl' could do it.[ QUOTE ]
Have you tried to do a 40 man raft?
[/ QUOTE ]
no, but the principle would be the same
[ QUOTE ]
Are you advicing that its better to jump into the sea and then right a raft in real sea conditions than just get into it without needing to jump into the sea?
[/ QUOTE ]
no, did I say it was ?[ QUOTE ]
My advice is -
1. When choosing a life raft always consider factors such as _
a) Self righting
b) Ease of access from the water - rope ladders are next usless.
c) Insulated floor - even in the english Channel a night in a raft can equal hypothermia.
At least be aware of them before rejecting them as too expensive.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree with any of that.
[ QUOTE ]
It seems that some attend sea survival courses and come away not appreciating the first thing about real life safety issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is possible, depending upon the instructor. At least I now know how to right a life raft if I am on some cheap-skates boat which doesn't have a self righting one.
[ QUOTE ]
Please get real - the sea survival course was in a f6 at sea was it?
Or was is it in a calm, warm swimming pool where you were not hypothermic etc?
[/ QUOTE ]No, it was in a calmish, cold, dive pool.
[ QUOTE ]
You are weaker than a slip of a girl are you?
[/ QUOTE ]
I've no idea, but if could right a 12 man raft with-out extending much effort, I can accept that a 'slip of a girl' could do it.[ QUOTE ]
Have you tried to do a 40 man raft?
[/ QUOTE ]
no, but the principle would be the same
[ QUOTE ]
Are you advicing that its better to jump into the sea and then right a raft in real sea conditions than just get into it without needing to jump into the sea?
[/ QUOTE ]
no, did I say it was ?[ QUOTE ]
My advice is -
1. When choosing a life raft always consider factors such as _
a) Self righting
b) Ease of access from the water - rope ladders are next usless.
c) Insulated floor - even in the english Channel a night in a raft can equal hypothermia.
At least be aware of them before rejecting them as too expensive.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree with any of that.
[ QUOTE ]
It seems that some attend sea survival courses and come away not appreciating the first thing about real life safety issues.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is possible, depending upon the instructor. At least I now know how to right a life raft if I am on some cheap-skates boat which doesn't have a self righting one.
Gludy
Well-Known Member
Re: 3 Drowned, 1 Survived clinging to hull all night, How does it happ
[ QUOTE ]
Go and do the sea survival course and then come back and comment!
[/ QUOTE ]
How do you know I have or have not been on one? Why do you not answer the questions?
[ QUOTE ]
OK, so it may only be in a swimming pool, but I can assure you that we make it as difficult as we can so that it can be appreciated how difficult it can be to use a life raft.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am sure you do but surely you teach about hypothermic shock and waves etc? Surely you teach how difficult all this can be and that its best to avoid jumping into the water at all?
[ QUOTE ]
"It also a major point that you should never step down into a lifraft, rather step up into it!! Frankly Gludy you are speaking through your rectal orifice.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you are saying that everyone has to jump into the water then climb into the liferaft even though they could step into it from the boat?????????
What about young kids - do you chuck them into the water?
Are you really serious? I understand about not jumping into the raft - I have never stated anywhere you should but i am saying you can get into the life raft from the boat and that is better than jumping in!!!!!!!
Either you or I are talking through our rectum here and I know its not me - now try answering the questions directly instead of relying on insult or macho nonesense.
[ QUOTE ]
Go and do the sea survival course and then come back and comment!
[/ QUOTE ]
How do you know I have or have not been on one? Why do you not answer the questions?
[ QUOTE ]
OK, so it may only be in a swimming pool, but I can assure you that we make it as difficult as we can so that it can be appreciated how difficult it can be to use a life raft.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am sure you do but surely you teach about hypothermic shock and waves etc? Surely you teach how difficult all this can be and that its best to avoid jumping into the water at all?
[ QUOTE ]
"It also a major point that you should never step down into a lifraft, rather step up into it!! Frankly Gludy you are speaking through your rectal orifice.
[/ QUOTE ]
So you are saying that everyone has to jump into the water then climb into the liferaft even though they could step into it from the boat?????????
What about young kids - do you chuck them into the water?
Are you really serious? I understand about not jumping into the raft - I have never stated anywhere you should but i am saying you can get into the life raft from the boat and that is better than jumping in!!!!!!!
Either you or I are talking through our rectum here and I know its not me - now try answering the questions directly instead of relying on insult or macho nonesense.