2str Vs 4str: The Data.....

[rustybarge]

Hi All,

Misty eyed about the past glories of 2str outboards?
some interesting data.
Anyone got got the fuel comparison charts?

 

[rbmatthews]

FWIW, last year I did a comparison of fuel consumption figures of the Honda 75 4-stroke and the Mariner 75 Optimax 2-stroke published by the manufacturers:

http://shetlandf4.wordpress.com/2013/10/13/fuel-consumption-2-vs-4-stroke/

Basically, it showed that there isn't much difference in fuel consumption between a modern 2- and 4-stroke - if anything, the 2-stroke had lower fuel consumption at higher rpm than the 4-stroke.

Rob.

 

[rustybarge]

Just shows all the old wives tales are false!

here's a comparison between. Leanburn Suzuki 150hp and a Honda 150 efi........look at the difference at 5000 revs!!!

.

Here's a very accurate consumption test from PBO magazine in 2008







if you look at motorboat owner you can compare the data: sports boat type 6.2 mtr by 2.5 beam 1.3 ton displ.
Suzuki 150 leanburn OB.


1000 3.2 kts 2.2ltr
1500 5.kts 4
2000 6.kts 6
2500 7.kts 10
3000 9.5.kts 14
3500 12.5.kts. 19
4000. 20kts. 21
4500 24kts. 28
5000. 27kts. 35.5




.....so: there's no saving at low revs, no saving at cruise of 4000 revs.......But considerable savings over 4500 revs.


Surprising !!!

http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/Rustybarge/media/imagejpg1_zps79bb36d4.jpg.html

 

[Canopy Locked]

Just buy an Evinrude E-TEC... no contest!

 

[rustybarge]

Just buy an Evinrude E-TEC... no contest!

they seem to a bit like marmite! A google search throws up some very nasty stories.
Do you have one, and how reliable has it been?
fuel burn?

I'm in the market for a new 90 hp outboard, can't make up my mind.
Short list is:
suzuki leanburn
Tohatsu 2str 90
yamaha 80hp
Honda 90.

the 2str are about £1500 cheaper for the same hp.

 

[Spi D]

The Evinrude Ficht series were a disaster (not all, but enough to put the "in general bad" stamp on the brand)

The E-Tec is a whole different story. Even built for easy servicing with systems for winterizing etc.

Just a commercial, but kinda interesting:

 

[landlockedpirate]

Nautorious had a 90 Etec on his day boat, superb engine, fast and quick to accelerate. Fantastic fuel consumption, always amazed how much left in the tank at the end of the day.

A lot of the scare stories about them were from a few over stressed racing engines, very few actual problems from domestic users.


I am a 2 stroke lover for small and light boats, but funnily enough I bought my first ever 4 stroke outboard this weekend. Its a Suzuki DF15, I have only run it up the Thames and so far a can say I am underwelmed Its a bit quiter than a Yam 15 2 stroke, its more of a faff to start and it weighs over 50kg, compared to the 36kg Yam.

 

[rustybarge]

Nautorious had a 90 Etec on his day boat, superb engine, fast and quick to accelerate. Fantastic fuel consumption, always amazed how much left in the tank at the end of the day.

A lot of the scare stories about them were from a few over stressed racing engines, very few actual problems from domestic users.


I am a 2 stroke lover for small and light boats, but funnily enough I bought my first ever 4 stroke outboard this weekend. Its a Suzuki DF15, I have only run it up the Thames and so far a can say I am underwelmed Its a bit quiter than a Yam 15 2 stroke, its more of a faff to start and it weighs over 50kg, compared to the 36kg Yam.

I think I am going to have to consider the Etec, it's nearly £2k cheaper than the 4str equivalent size OB, that's a lot of petrol. i also like no servicing for 3 years, that's a big bonus.
not too sure about its depreciation curve in comparison to a 4str Yamaha, but how much is any CPU controlled outboard going to be after 10 years?

The guy who delivered my boat had a 90 Etec On his rib and was very pleased with it too.

 

[Spi D]

Not much of the old 2-stroke sound or smell about either.



About winterization:

 

[AndieMac]

.............The guy who delivered my boat had a 90 Etec On his rib and was very pleased with it too.

The earlier versions of Etec were a bit ordinary.

I was involved commercially with a marina, with a sister company being an Evinrude, Mercury dealership, workshop etc.

The dealership purchased six, new at the time, 2005 model, 90 hp Etec engines, four were sold to clients, and one was put on the marina workboat.

After one hundred hours of use in the workboat, a fair bit of idling and slow work but never thrashed in the slightest, the engine suffered major failure, resulting in a new power-head.

The other four engines sold to clients all had catastrophic engine failures.

The last of the engines was put on the marina workboat and is still there today.

Surfing around the net, opinions seem to indicate the earlier versions may have been problematic, but later versions seem ok.

Edit: owners also grumble about the price of the Etec specific oil they have to purchase, XD100, especially if doing lots of hours.

 

[Canopy Locked]

they seem to a bit like marmite! A google search throws up some very nasty stories.
Do you have one, and how reliable has it been?
fuel burn?

I'm in the market for a new 90 hp outboard, can't make up my mind.
Short list is:
suzuki leanburn
Tohatsu 2str 90
yamaha 80hp
Honda 90.

the 2str are about £1500 cheaper for the same hp.

I have had 2 - The modern E-TEC G1 is much better then previous Evinrudes and the very early E-TEC. My current one is 150hp which drives my Merry Fisher 755 (approx 2700kgs) at a cruise of 24 kts and flat out at around 30kts. It uses around 34L/hr at the cruise and on tick over 0.7L/hr. I have opted for the ICON control system (fly by wire) and I have the dual battery charging system fitted (both batteries charged independently). I am slight hacked off with Jeanneau as they provided very little in the way of data for on the water tests of different engine sizes and different prop sizes. If I could do it again I would chose the big block (3.3L) 200 HO engine as it would spin my 15.75 x 15" pitch prop much more easily. The E-TEC is also considerably lighter than a 4 stroke.

In terms of ownership - Yes 3 year servicing means .. 3 year DEALER servicing intervals. There's no Oil change after 20 hrs.

Personally I do the very basics myself eg: gearbox oil change and fuel filter... but that's it. I can plug a hose pipe in allowing a fresh water flush while on my berth; If I'm leaving for a long time I run the winterise procedure (fogging the engine) It's really easy, just press 1 button and the EMU does the rest. I also have the diagnostic software which allows me to hook up the laptop and download a full engine history report.. very useful if I had a problem and needed some advice from my dealer - the nearest is 200 miles away. Click on the link to see a sample report.. http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/ETEC_EngineHistoryReport.html

What I really love about the E-TEC is that, from day 1 you can push the throttle wide open and the response is instant with massive torque. I also like the fact that it's white.

Evinrude have just brought out the G2 E-TEC which is "marmite extreme" but has some very interesting features. take a look on facebook. It won't be over in the UK for a while though!

 

[rustybarge]

The earlier versions of Etec were a bit ordinary.

I was involved commercially with a marina, with a sister company being an Evinrude, Mercury dealership, workshop etc.

The dealership purchased six, new at the time, 2005 model, 90 hp Etec engines, four were sold to clients, and one was put on the marina workboat.

After one hundred hours of use in the workboat, a fair bit of idling and slow work but never thrashed in the slightest, the engine suffered major failure, resulting in a new power-head.

The other four engines sold to clients all had catastrophic engine failures.

The last of the engines was put on the marina workboat and is still there today.

Surfing around the net, opinions seem to indicate the earlier versions may have been problematic, but later versions seem ok.

Edit: owners also grumble about the price of the Etec specific oil they have to purchase, XD100, especially if doing lots of hours.

That's a bit off putting to say the least !!!

You know what they say, there no such thing as a no free lunch, (re: the special oil)

I'm beginning to think it may all sound a bit too good to true?

 

[rustybarge]

I have had 2 - The modern E-TEC G1 is much better then previous Evinrudes and the very early E-TEC. My current one is 150hp which drives my Merry Fisher 755 (approx 2700kgs) at a cruise of 24 kts and flat out at around 30kts. It uses around 34L/hr at the cruise and on tick over 0.7L/hr. I have opted for the ICON control system (fly by wire) and I have the dual battery charging system fitted (both batteries charged independently). I am slight hacked off with Jeanneau as they provided very little in the way of data for on the water tests of different engine sizes and different prop sizes. If I could do it again I would chose the big block (3.3L) 200 HO engine as it would spin my 15.75 x 15" pitch prop much more easily. The E-TEC is also considerably lighter than a 4 stroke.

In terms of ownership - Yes 3 year servicing means .. 3 year DEALER servicing intervals. There's no Oil change after 20 hrs.

Personally I do the very basics myself eg: gearbox oil change and fuel filter... but that's it. I can plug a hose pipe in allowing a fresh water flush while on my berth; If I'm leaving for a long time I run the winterise procedure (fogging the engine) It's really easy, just press 1 button and the EMU does the rest. I also have the diagnostic software which allows me to hook up the laptop and download a full engine history report.. very useful if I had a problem and needed some advice from my dealer - the nearest is 200 miles away. Click on the link to see a sample report.. http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/ETEC_EngineHistoryReport.html

What I really love about the E-TEC is that, from day 1 you can push the throttle wide open and the response is instant with massive torque. I also like the fact that it's white.

Evinrude have just brought out the G2 E-TEC which is "marmite extreme" but has some very interesting features. take a look on facebook. It won't be over in the UK for a while though!

I presume that weight is a typo, Thats a lot of weight to push with just 150hp, so you must be up over 4500 revs at cruise. The Honda 150 4str uses exactly the same fuel at that throttle setting, which proves the point about identical fuel consumption for modern 2str and 4str engines nicely.

 

[rustybarge]

Looking at the chart in post: 3, there is a difference emerging between the different makes of OB.

the Honda 150 4str (post:3) and the Etec 150hp 2str (post:11) both use about 35 ltr/ hr at 4500 revs.
the suzuki leanburn(post:3) uses 28 ltr at the same setting, that's 7ltr / hr less which is a considerable saving and increase in range.

the Suzuki leanburn technology seems to work at the higher throttle settings.
http://www.suzukimarine.com/Product Lines/Outboard Motors/Products/DF150/2012/DF150.aspx

the sea angler 220 fx: 2400 lbs, about 1 ton ( same weight as Honda test, much lighter than MF 755)

4000rev....5.6 us gal/hr, 21 ltr
4500.........7.45............28 ltr

 

[Nick_H]

Yep, it's a bit too simplistic to compare 2str vs 4 str fuel consumption, you have to be specific about models and model years.

For example, Yamaha claim their V6 300 hp is 17% more fuel efficient that a Verdao 300, and a third more than a Suzuki DF300 at a certain RPM, both of these also being 4strokes. The Evinrude ETEC, a 2 stroke, is more efficient than the Suzuki, but less than the Yamaha and the Merc at most usable RPM ranges, but it has more torque, so can maybe swing a bigger prop and may therefore go faster at the same RPM. A fairer comparison would be a given boat speed, but then you have to have the engines on exactly the same boat which is impractical.

Even within the Yamaha range, their 4.2L V6 250 hp 4 stroke is more efficient than their 3.3L V6 250 hp 4 stroke

To confuse the picture further, Evinrude have just bought out a next generation two stroke range, and they claim these are "15% better fuel efficiency and 20% more torque than leading four-stroke engines". If they are being honest about the "leading four strokes", then they will have compared it against the Yam 4.2L, though they don't say "leading" in what.

I bought the (current generation) ETEC because I know I wont do major hours, so any fuel and oil savings on the Yam wont offset the higher purchase and servicing costs. I also liked the features mentioned above, ie. no run in, one button winterising, 3 year service interval, plus I got a 5 year warranty. So far I love the power of the ETEC, but its way too early to comment on durability or reliability.

edit: don't be too put off by ETEC oil costs. You can buy a gallon for £39, and this will mix with £600 worth of petrol, so the oil cost is pretty small in comparison, and don't foget you don't have engine oil to change, and you save all that money on servicing.

 

[rustybarge]

Yep, it's a bit too simplistic to compare 2str vs 4 str fuel consumption, you have to be specific about models.

For example, Yamaha claim their V6 300 hp is 17% more fuel efficient that a Verdao 300, and a third more than a Suzuki DF300 at a certain RPM, both of these also being 4strokes. The Evinrude ETEC, a 2 stroke, is more efficient than the Suzuki, but less than the Yamaha and the Merc at most usable RPM ranges, but it has more torque, so can maybe swing a bigger prop and may therefore go faster at the same RPM. A fairer comparison would be a given boat speed, but then you have to have the engines on exactly the same boat which is impractical.

Even within the Yamaha range, their 4.2L V6 250 hp 4 stroke is more efficient than their 3.3L V6 250 hp 4 stroke

To confuse the picture further, Evinrude have just bought out a next generation two stroke range, and they claim these are "15% better fuel efficiency and 20% more torque than leading four-stroke engines". If they are being honest about the "leading four strokes", then they will have compared it against the Yam 4.2L, though they don't say "leading" in what.

I bought the (current generation) ETEC because I know I wont do major hours, so any fuel and oil savings on the Yam wont offset the higher purchase and servicing costs. I also liked the features mentioned above, ie. no run in, one button winterising, 3 year service interval, plus I got a 5 year warranty. So far I love the power of the ETEC, but its way too early to comment on durability or reliability.

edit: don't be too put off by ETEC oil costs. You can buy a gallon for £39, and this will mix with £600 worth of petrol, so the oil cost is pretty small in comparison, and don't foget you don't have engine oil to change, and you save all that money on servicing.

i was just about to ask you that, that's no bad at all!

special 2str oil, how? Any old oil will do IMO.

 

[Nick_H]

i was just about to ask you that, that's no bad at all!

special 2str oil, how? Any old oil will do IMO.

You can use normal 2 stroke oil, but then you run at 50:1 instead of 100:1, so you have to buy good quality oil at less that £20 a gallon, plus you have a bit more oily exhaust smell. Also I think the XD100 setting is actually better than 100:1 depending on use, as it doesn't add a consistent mix, it varies depending on RPM, though i'm not certain on this.

 

[Nick_H]

I have opted for the ICON control system (fly by wire)

I also opted for this, and it's lovely to use, but I hate the fact that it has no interlock. I think this is a really valuable safety feature on small boats (which is where the majority of outboards go). I've already had one close call where a loop of rope hooked over the throttle as I was walking along the side deck when mooring single handed. I really don't understand why they've removed it on digital throttles, when the feature isn't really related to the cable mechanism anyway.

I guess it's a bit less of an issue on a Merry Fisher, but I think it's an accident waiting to happen on powerful RIBS where the throttle is in an exposed position on the console and people are squeezing past.

 

[landlockedpirate]

special 2str oil, how? Any old oil will do IMO.

And thats why you probably shouldnt buy an Etec

 

[rustybarge]

You can use normal 2 stroke oil, but then you run at 50:1 instead of 100:1, so you have to buy good quality oil at less that £20 a gallon, plus you have a bit more oily exhaust smell. Also I think the XD100 setting is actually better than 100:1 depending on use, as it doesn't add a consistent mix, it varies depending on RPM, though i'm not certain on this.

That makes sense; you will use less special mix oil than the bog standard stuff, but it does mean if you're stuck without the good stuff you can always use whatever is available.....a definite bonus point.