GaryJeffery
Active Member
It's good that progress is being made for road vehicles, do you know if anyone is applying this to boats yet? There are a lot more old style engines in pleasure boats i would say...
2035 ban on petrol/diesel cars and the implications to boating?
- Thread starter thejonesey
- Start date
GaryJeffery
Active Member
Yes, you are right about that, I am really pointing out that "short term 'ism" and too narrow a focus, is rife in the environmental narrative and surrounding politics. The point is once the mis-informed start voting on subjects such as these, albeit with the very best intention, these things can gain momentum and happen way faster than common sense can comprehend. The consequenses are not fully explored.
The Oil and Gas industry (in which I currently work - exploration tech company) is still spending significant millions on exploration, there are now identified reserves that are forecast to last 2-300 years, and more are being found with every new survey. Then add in with every step forward in geophysical modelling, they are discovering more in existing locations. With that amount of energy known and already invested in, there will be little political will to end the problem. Make no mistake governments make billions just selling exploration rights and licences to the oil industry, let alone what they get once production starts. My hope is that a breakthrough in emissions and by products of combustion management will occur and that the pollutants can be safely neutralised. It's a tough subject to discuss this one, it can be very emotive for the impassioned.
GaryJeffery
Active Member
HI Kashurst, interested to look into that, do you have a link to any info?
GaryJeffery
Active Member
i'm 59 this year, its a slim chance but I might be around in 30 years
I think things will change faster though, the political will is gaining momentum. Though if the coming changes are properly thought through will be anyones guess!GaryJeffery
Active Member
I am playing devils advocate here to prod some responses, but have people considered the following (possibly ironic) points:
Without fuel consumption, there would be no Oil Industry,
Without the oil industry and it's wider product:
- you wouldn't be able to build a viable electric car or the factory to produce it in
- The resins GRP boats are made of wouldn't exist
- Everything would be made of rocks, bones or wood
- Space exploration would still be just a dream
- travel would be by sailing or steam power, no planes.
- You wouldn't even be reading this, without the oils & gaseous products there could be no computers or LCD screens or electronic components, just word of mouth and carrier pigeons
I'll stop there, but could add hundreds more thoughts
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it!
Without fuel consumption, there would be no Oil Industry,
Without the oil industry and it's wider product:
- you wouldn't be able to build a viable electric car or the factory to produce it in
- The resins GRP boats are made of wouldn't exist
- Everything would be made of rocks, bones or wood
- Space exploration would still be just a dream
- travel would be by sailing or steam power, no planes.
- You wouldn't even be reading this, without the oils & gaseous products there could be no computers or LCD screens or electronic components, just word of mouth and carrier pigeons
I'll stop there, but could add hundreds more thoughts
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it!
andy59
Well-Known Member
Some interesting reading here, https://www.europeanboatingindustry...activities_what-impact-on-the-environment.pdf,
Emissions of pollutants into air from recreational marine engines are minor in Europe, compared to other sources of air pollution. Recreational craft emissions represent 0.56% of total emissions due to human activities and 1.65% of road transport emissions. The emission levels are further reduced by continuous technological improvements and new legal restrictions. The emission reductions in force since January 2007 (also referred to as Stage 1) will result in a 60% reduction in hydrocarbon (HC) plus nitrogen oxides (NOX) emissions from boats in Europe compared to the non-regulated boats operating in the EU (e.g. small fishing and commercial vessels). With the proposal for further reductions to be presented by the European Commission in 2010 (so- called Stage 2 emission level), the reduction of recreational marine engine emissions will be dramatically reduced. This will represent a further reduction of the local environmental impact of nautical activities in areas where a high boat population is concentrated. The Stage 2 emission level will represent an additional reduction by 25% compared to Stage 1 for the most relevant pollutants (HC+NO and PT).64
admittedly this study is 12 years old but gives an idea of our share of the impact on the environment ( relatively speaking ).
Emissions of pollutants into air from recreational marine engines are minor in Europe, compared to other sources of air pollution. Recreational craft emissions represent 0.56% of total emissions due to human activities and 1.65% of road transport emissions. The emission levels are further reduced by continuous technological improvements and new legal restrictions. The emission reductions in force since January 2007 (also referred to as Stage 1) will result in a 60% reduction in hydrocarbon (HC) plus nitrogen oxides (NOX) emissions from boats in Europe compared to the non-regulated boats operating in the EU (e.g. small fishing and commercial vessels). With the proposal for further reductions to be presented by the European Commission in 2010 (so- called Stage 2 emission level), the reduction of recreational marine engine emissions will be dramatically reduced. This will represent a further reduction of the local environmental impact of nautical activities in areas where a high boat population is concentrated. The Stage 2 emission level will represent an additional reduction by 25% compared to Stage 1 for the most relevant pollutants (HC+NO and PT).64
admittedly this study is 12 years old but gives an idea of our share of the impact on the environment ( relatively speaking ).
kashurst
Well-Known Member
do you have a link to this report showing electric cars are more polluting? I have googled etc but can't find anything that reflects your post.
regarding recycling of Lithium batteries it is possible and being done
Honda Global | Page4
kashurst
Well-Known Member
kashurst
Well-Known Member
I am playing devils advocate here to prod some responses, but have people considered the following (possibly ironic) points:
Without fuel consumption, there would be no Oil Industry, - correct
Without the oil industry and it's wider product:
- you wouldn't be able to build a viable electric car or the factory to produce it in - why not, again materials technology is growing.
- The resins GRP boats are made of wouldn't exist - you can make boats out of lots of materials
- Everything would be made of rocks, bones or wood - Bioplastic - Wikipedia
- Space exploration would still be just a dream - rockets use hydrogen as fuel
- travel would be by sailing or steam power, no planes. - electric planes are flying around already
- You wouldn't even be reading this, without the oils & gaseous products there could be no computers or LCD screens or electronic components, just word of mouth and carrier pigeons - probably right there, so best not to waste a useful resource by just burning it.
Modern science and chemistry has come on leaps and bounds during the oil age, without oil we would still be riding about on steam engines. The technology and science we have learnt as a result, mean that in future we don't have to be totally reliant on oil. The age of oil has enabled us to move ahead potentially without it.
Without fuel consumption, there would be no Oil Industry, - correct
Without the oil industry and it's wider product:
- you wouldn't be able to build a viable electric car or the factory to produce it in - why not, again materials technology is growing.
- The resins GRP boats are made of wouldn't exist - you can make boats out of lots of materials
- Everything would be made of rocks, bones or wood - Bioplastic - Wikipedia
- Space exploration would still be just a dream - rockets use hydrogen as fuel
- travel would be by sailing or steam power, no planes. - electric planes are flying around already
- You wouldn't even be reading this, without the oils & gaseous products there could be no computers or LCD screens or electronic components, just word of mouth and carrier pigeons - probably right there, so best not to waste a useful resource by just burning it.
Modern science and chemistry has come on leaps and bounds during the oil age, without oil we would still be riding about on steam engines. The technology and science we have learnt as a result, mean that in future we don't have to be totally reliant on oil. The age of oil has enabled us to move ahead potentially without it.
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thejonesey
Well-Known Member
Obviously, but if I sell in 10years as the government changes take hold then a valuable asset will depreciate a lot quicker. I have broken even in terms of the last eight boats and while I accept depreciation is a factor it can be minimised with the right (usually older) boat. My current boat may even be rising in value.
Really interesting stuff about the oil industry here and the growing exploration. I too believe that we cannot turn off the tap and am suprised that all the debate is about reducing emissions alone. Given we do not have the tech for effective alternatives the big opportunity would seem to be in cleaning up the damage we have done. A massive task but the market has a way of seeking out profitable solutions when there is sufficient incentive.
sharpness
Well-Known Member
Boating in the year 2050......
Greg2
Well-Known Member
And our political class announced a future ban on diesel vehicles a year or so ago despite the fact that they emit approx 20% less CO2. Still, I guess the rhetoric helped justify the the tax has increases. As I said in my post (#10) the problem is that the issue isn’t currently being considered in the round and it could be argued that politicians pose the greatest risk!
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Soco2
Well-Known Member
Didn’t I read somewhere that it would require the U.K. alone to create 20,000 charging points per week for the next 30 years to keep up with the ability to be all electric by 2050?
That’s never going to happen!
That’s never going to happen!
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Maybe think about some new sails for this ....
MFA 505 .......
MFA 505 .......
Momac
Well-Known Member
It will be interesting to reflect back on this thread in 10 years and see what has changed in practice. I think the number of electric cars will have increased significantly.
However I don't see electric working for fast boats any time soon. River boats perhaps. I know of one fully electric narrow boat.
People reading this may well have gas guzzling boats but I don't see their emissions as significant to the overall environmental impact . I put more fuel in my car in year than I do in the boat.
However I don't see electric working for fast boats any time soon. River boats perhaps. I know of one fully electric narrow boat.
People reading this may well have gas guzzling boats but I don't see their emissions as significant to the overall environmental impact . I put more fuel in my car in year than I do in the boat.
Refueler
Well-Known Member
Tell the environmentalists about boat numbers when they fought to ban 2strokers ...
Momac
Well-Known Member
I have 2 stroke 3hp outboard for the dinghy , which to be honest gets very little use. Pollution from that is insignificant .
The engine was new in 1966 (or thereabouts) . Far better for the environment to keep the old thing in use compared to buying a new one.
I must be getting old a I think some of the slightly older technology is better as it is more easily maintained / repaired and kept running.
If new diesel engined boats were banned would that not have positive impact on the value of used diesel engined boats ?
kashurst
Well-Known Member
I don't think motor boats will get banned, there is not enough to be materially important from an emissions perspective. Diesel price will just follow road diesel prices. There is a possibility though that motor boating with diesel/petrol will just eventually become socially unacceptable in some parts of the world - and that will reduce values. I thinking 25 - 35 years so I don't think many of us will need to worry about it. River and lake boats will eventually become electric though, either by replacement or relatively easy conversions over time. Its the sort of thing the Lake District Authority could decide to bring in.
Assassin
Well-Known Member
Yes, and most industrial engines, but the main factor is cost and manufacturing quality as it is still in the development stages to minimise the number of systems and maximise the number of applications it will fit for industrial engines and their variants.
Bosch and Delphi have a new diesel injection system currently in testing and this is claimed to revolutionise diesel injection and reduce engine emissions to virtually zero for very little more cost. According to Bosch they can also be retro fitted to newer engines with Bosch injection systems.
It was published in most car magazines and the last time I looked it was in the What Car archives and publically accessible.
Assassin
Well-Known Member
Yes it did, only a couple of weeks ago and it also stated the huge number of power stations that needed building just to supply electric cars which would of course be taxpayer funded and handed over to private companies eventually.